11 Sep 2012

Hebrews 5, Assuming the Position

Submitted by theshovel
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We are back in Hebrews this week, tying the matter of obedience back into the place in Hebrews 5 where we began it. Some of the questions we considered deals with why Jesus would have had to learn obedience, as well as why he is spoken of as the source of eternal salvation to all those who obey him.

Hebrews 5: Assuming the Position

(Audio Series: Obedience & Hebrews)

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Thanks for preparing and posting this my brother. Adam

I am so glad for this discussion. It was all the things I thought I did that I was calling life and pleasing to God but was still in death. My being crucified with Christ became real experientially and then the confidence in HIS LIFE was my total freedom and rest. It was then I saw the law fulfilled in me so I could no longer judge right and wrong and still be my own god (Death). Except for HIM doing the total work there was no way I could see while being blind and in darkness. In the darkness I always had to justify the life I was living but now I know I need justify nothing because HE is the LIFE. You are so right in the obedience. I saw it wasn’t what I was doing but it was the total ME and in me there was NO obedience. It was then I saw whether termed legalism or grace (both could be made a system). I don’t think one can systemitize HIS LIFE. Vivian
theshovel's picture

Vivian, I also thank you so much for taking the time to respond to our audio. You are so right, we have tried so hard to figure God out in a way that makes sense on paper that we kept looking for the right belief system, the right theology ... but as you have concluded, there really is no such thing. It's not that there aren't true things about God, but the systematic mind of man assumes it can get a handle on God by having all those true things about God nailed down. It is only by his life and his spirit that we can know God!

Jim :)

Wow Vivian, you expressed this so well. It really is touching..thanks so much!! Adam

In the days of His flesh/humanity, In the days of our flesh/humanity. Christ came to die and was raised for our justification..Just as if we have not sinned..to give us freedom from the mentality of sin and death..the fear factor / living up to others expectations..We are Free From all those who would judge us after their fleshly mindset ..We are Free from others opinions..We are Free to love and to laugh and to live in Christ ..to experience that Grace and Enjoy it to the fullest. ..hear it , see it , live it, be it..Live as one Who knows He/She is Alive in Christ..live with the knowing that YOU have the Spirit of God with you in this body of flesh.. walking around with a Sin conscience mentality will only put bondage on us ..a cycle of band aid fix it work..we will always be a slave to it ..the real freedom is realizing the awakening of our freedom of Being Christ minded ..His Yoke is easy His burden is Light..and allowing The Holy Spirit to bring us out of bondage of resting in Men’s vain philosophy or puffed up wisdom rather then Gods. Delight yourself in knowing Him . Embrace your born again relationship having that divine nature living on the inside of you ..chose to live on the faith side the grace side the love side which brings us to the Holy side by our much delight we take in new identity in Christ Jesus ..Relationships are essential to cultivate or nurture one-another in your most Holy Faith. Holy means ..devotion , consecrations..this is an inward in all its entirety thing. A development over time process a learning to unravel the Grace and Freedoms of being Free from the guilt and shame of the law and Legalisms..isms. But very much Alive in Christ .. You mean ~ I can boast in the LORD all I want, there is NO LIMIT or FEAR in doing that, to enjoy this Salvation while suffering at times ..He is my Oasis . I am FREE to show my appreciation and thankfulness for God being God my Father . I love people of God that can truly be Free to be themselves and enjoy me being me at the same time ! Keep it up, D

My goodness was that beautiful … refreshing … rich! Thank you for sharing. Nergo

As I am listening to this teaching…and I’m only a few minutes into it this question popped into my mind, which I have often thought about. Is there a reflection in Paul’s writings that indicates that he was growing in grace, wisdom, obedience, eternal security, etc….? In other words, does Paul’s later writings reflect a manifestation of truth, that was only “head knowledge” in earlier writings. Does Paul become more confident in who he is in Christ in his later writings than in his earlier writings? Or does his earlier writings reflect that Paul was not quite sure that his salvation was secure and that he might lose it…but in his later writings he grows in God’s grace and learns that he is totally secure. Does God actually allow Paul to write about his own personal insecurity and we take it as though he is teaching insecurity and a need to maintain our salvation, when in fact Paul was only indicating his own growth in the truth. Does this make any sense or am I just regurgitating some fleshy thinking? Does this make any sense in the current discussion?

I would love to see an answer to this enquiry, too.
theshovel's picture

Hello my friend!

I remember some similar suggestions years ago regarding Paul's progressive understanding of the gospel as seen in his letters where the brother pointed out what he saw as Paul's most complete understanding in the letter to the Ephesians. He saw a huge omission in other letters regarding the phrasing about our being raised up in heavenly places (or the heavenlies). His argument maintained that one could get caught up in legalism without that more complete understanding of the gospel. I didn't contemplate it very long, for it seemed merely a semantic issue that was based upon an exact phrasing not employed in his other letters. As Paul wrote the letter known as Ephesians after his letter to the Galatians, I think he would have had to do a lot of explaining and back-tracking as to how he goofed up with making such a strong stand with what would have been an incomplete gospel in his letter to the Galatians ... if that viewpoint was true, that is. I mean if that was the case, why wouldn't he have written letters to those churches to correct the misinformation of his earlier years?

Of course, considering the fact that Paul's writings fit within a rather small window of time (circa 51-58 A.D.) — making none of them too far removed in time from his powerful letter to the Galatians (circa 55 A.D.) — I don't see much basis for speculation. It's not like he didn't have a lot of time to struggle with the basic realities of life in Christ, for he believed on Christ approximately 25-30 years before he wrote his letters.

I think we are trying too hard to read our concerns into what he wrote to different groups of people. Most of what I've discovered is that when seen in context that most of my former speculations fell away. On the other hand, Paul did discuss his own former legal reasoning in Romans 7, and his struggles with his insecurities, his weaknesses and his failures in the Corinthian letters. So actually, we do have a record of his growing in grace.



Hey guys got a new computer took me a minute to figure it out. Any way good stuff as always. The thing about eternal salvation I always here complete when I read that. As in lacking nothing right now all that we stand in need of is now in Christ. Most are waiting for a reward. After physcial death our reward is Christ now and it is eternal never changing always now. The other thing I thought of listening was the parable of the sower. We here the word of God the seed who is Christ is planted and then we resist all that would come and try to tell us that we are not really this new creation we are in Christ. When I say hear the word of God I believe most here any way know I am not talking about the bible. Christ is the word and the seed that is planted is Himself. Any way thanks guys and all others for the comments. Cool stuff.
theshovel's picture

Hello Dave! Glad to hear you got your new computer set up and (obviously) running. :)

Yes, we are too easily lured into the reasoning of the world when it comes to our endless attempts to get concrete answers to our eternal security concerns. We want to have an answer that's similar in nature to the answers we learned in this world, answers that can be written down and graded — as on an exam or pop quiz. We try too hard to squeeze an eternal reality into a temporal understanding.

As always, I am glad that you are encouraged by what we put out. :)


Dave really enjoyed your comments brother. Yes Christ, the Life of God! Adam

I can listen to these messages and have this sense of peace prevade throughout my being.  It's the fellowship with you brothers and the reality of Christ freeing my mind from the quagmire of this world. heart


"Christ in You, the Hope"

theshovel's picture

Thanks Mary! It makes our creating the audio all that much better to know that you are there with us in your heart.

Thanks, Jim

Jim & Adam, This audio hits right where we live!! No wonder we rejoice in the truth of it. Ian Thomas in one of his sermons talks about Christ being made perfect as in regards to his vocation(purpose)as Christ was already perfectly righteous. He made the comparison that God will make us perfect in that same way for our vocation(purpose). As Adam said, Jim through your suffering God has been making you perfect for your vocation (purpose)of freeing people from fleshly religion to life in Christ. If you had not gone through the experiences of bible school and working in churches and seeing the emptiness and condemnation that came as a result you would not have recognized to the same degree the fullness of this reality of freedom that Christ gives! The longer we are free in Christ the clearer we see and the more repulsive the fleshly substitute becomes! Enjoying Jesus, Dan

Dan an excellent encouragement brother!


Thanks so much for your partnership in faith.



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