Shovel Q and A

Shovel Q and A http://theshovel.net/questions/ questions and answers about grace and freedom in Christ http://theshovel.net/questions/ http://theshovel.net/questions/ Shovel Q and A 48 48 en-us Copyright (c) 2008 Jim Minker Program Witch ASP Code 2.0 120 theshovel@gmail.com theshovel@gmail.com romans 11-can believers be "unborn"? http://theshovel.net/questions/dig.asp?TID=525#633 http://theshovel.net/questions/dig.asp?TID=525#633Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:15:24 EST [quote=Nergo writes]I tend to believe in eternal security meaning that once we are saved, born again, we cannot be unsaved. We are sealed in Him forever. Born again is an excellent description of our security in Him. Several verses say we are called sons or children of God once we are born again. These phrases seem to lock us in as being one with Him forever. Then we have the verse in Hebrews 4? that says 'we are saved once and for all'. HOWEVER, i Romans 11:12-32 int appears to indicate we can be unborn. It states the Jew or the believer can be cut off from Christ. (I don't have my Bible now to quote but the verses indicates salvation can be lost.) I realize Paul might be addressing the Jews under law and not those under grace but these verses DO leave room for God to decide to "unborn us" or "unseal us" if we choose to walk away from Christ I tend to believe we are eternally secure but Romans 11 gets one to think. Please share your views on this.[/quote]

Hello Nergo!

What Paul wrote about in Romans 11 is not dealing with individuals but with Gentile vs. Jew and the common attitude of boasting that seems to follow many who think themselves somehow better or more important than those who reject Christ. The branches grafted in refer to Gentiles in general ... as a whole, that is. For Gentiles to look down upon Jews for rejecting Christ is irrational for a couple reasons.

One, the simple fact is that Gentiles had rejected the true God for ages and should understand that it took a miracle to receive him in the first place.

Two, God sent Paul to the Gentiles after the Jews had made a public stand in rejecting the one who was sent to THEM. Of course, God had orchestrated the whole thing, so that Gentiles are not an after-thought, but the truth remains that Christ was of the Jews.

Since the Jews as a whole had been cut off from Christ so that the Gentiles would take front and center in the revealing of Christ Paul points out that God could just as easily turn it back around by cutting off the Gentiles as a whole. You see, just because Jews as a whole were cut off doesn't have any effect upon the Jews who did believe. Paul was one of them, and there were many in the gatherings he established. The same goes for the possibility Paul suggested of Gentiles being cut off. Gentiles who believed are not being cut off, rather Gentiles as a whole. For the logic of the tree is that if the wild graftings took well in a tree of a different root then natural cuttings would more rapidly be connected back to their own root.

Thoughts?

Jim :)

]]> Security or Insecurity? the shovel what about christians with super powers? http://theshovel.net/questions/dig.asp?TID=524#632 http://theshovel.net/questions/dig.asp?TID=524#632Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:17:20 EST
[quote=Justin]Sometimes he even knows what I'm thinking.[/quote]

I've had people tell me they thought I must be reading their minds when I was only speaking about my own thoughts and reactions. It only seemed that way because our thinking patterns were so similar. On top of that, people often wear their thoughts like clothes. It comes out in everything they say so that anyone who takes the time to observe it will know what the person is thinking. I know, because I have learned to observe quite a bit. It always drove my daughters up a wall! They usually tried to convince me they weren't thinking what I thought they were, but would later tell me that I always seemed to know their thoughts. Most of the time I was just repeating back exactly what they had already told me earlier but apparently didn't realize they had told me. Of course, I always tell them they were the ones who told me and that I was just repeating. You probably talk to this guy a lot, don't you? I'll bet he listens well and has learned to read you like a book.

[quote=Justin]And there was one time that he was speaking in tongues and he spoke Hebrew perfectly![/quote]

How in the world would you know if he was speaking Hebrew, especially perfect Hebrew? I have always been curious about such claims.

[quote=Justin]Let's say that the Holy Spirit is using [this man] in these ways and he does have this supernatural connection with him that seems so common, at least on the surface, in mainstream Christianity...then where does that leave you and I who really don't have these psychic, if u will, powers?[/quote]

I'll answer you with this quote from Paul [quote=1 Corinthians 1:26-31]
Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things-and the things that are not-to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God-that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: 'Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.'[/quote]

[quote=Justin]He read some writings of your site (since I'm so obsessed with it) and then later insinuated that it was a cult, but he didnt come out and say that.[/quote]

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he considers me a heretic. That's okay with me. :)

[quote=Justin]he says "get out" as if I'm choosing to be confused.[/quote]

Yeah, I see that. The irony here is that the confusion is part and parcel with the very teaching this man uses in an attempt to control you. There is no real hope in what he wrote, for he puts your salvation in your own hands as if you could do that which is impossible for man.

[quote=Justin]I love my friends a lot Jim but it seems as though they don't get it...they think I'm choosing to be a backslider. And they don't see that they're religious...maybe cuz God has confirmed so many miracles with these people, cuz theyre all [from a certain place] and they believe in Anointing and they have super powers and I just don't know...what do you think?[/quote]

Perhaps all these supposed miracles are in the eyes of the beholders. Read the latter half of 2 Corinthians and you'll discover that Paul was being contradicted and put down by the same kind of people: "Super apostles". Paul was pleased to be considered weak and foolish in comparison to those who had seemed so spiritual in the eyes of the Corinthians. Join me in my weakness, he would write to them. That's the same I'd say to you. Don't let their appearance of spirituality confuse you.

Jim ]]> Spiritual Abuse the shovel is romans 7 our continuing reality in christ? http://theshovel.net/questions/dig.asp?TID=523#631 http://theshovel.net/questions/dig.asp?TID=523#631Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:18:47 EST
This will probably be a short response today, but I wanted you to know how excited I am with what you've written. As an example:

[quote=John]Listen…. I am under law and dying… no question…. But the only option I have at this point is to let my flesh run wild and put my trust in earthly treasures and security. I am trying… really trying...I know that you would say that is not the way, but what can I do when I don’t have anything else to move out of? I have tried to crucify that which was my foundation for living previous to the bible (the flesh) and have had nothing replace it. I feel totally dead. I understand the fallacies, but don’t know what else to do. I want this message to be true. Life is meaningless otherwise. I have tried so hard to find my purpose solely in Him. Tried so hard to be obedient to my understandings. I feel so alone and unsure of His really having raised and the story really being true and me really being His.[/quote]

While you assume this is some kind of indictment against you all I see is the expression of real life within you, a life that cannot be satisfied with that which is of the flesh, no matter what kind of religious spin it is labeled with. You also expressed this well:

[quote=John]I never bought the religious take on less than perfection. I never bought the religious take on Romans 7 being our continuing reality. I believed that when it said free it meant free. I have tried and have only been under Law. Don’t know what else to do.[/quote]

I'm sure you remember how Romans 7 ends, but I'll quote it anyhow:

[quote=Romans 7:24-25]"Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin."[/quote]

I used to think this was such an odd or incomplete answer to the question, especially as he seemed to be making a conclusion. I mean, even when I heard the emphasis put on "THROUGH Jesus Christ our Lord" I still couldn't see the connection with his conclusion ... especially when the next statement jumps right into this most amazing declaration of the totality of a lack of condemnation toward those who are in Christ.

[quote=Romans 8:1]Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.[/quote]

How could there be no condemnation in view of the second half of his conclusion: "I myself ... am serving ... with my flesh the law of sin" ... unless, as you have suggested, Romans 7 is not our continuing reality? What I've come to see is that such a viewpoint is the only conclusion the logical/religious mind can produce. The mind of the flesh cannot see past its own demise, extend beyond its own confinement, nor understand a choice it cannot make. No wonder something within us balks at fleshly interpretations of the expressions of another dimension, that is, from the real.

You are absolutely correct, Romans 7 does not define or lay out our continuing reality in Christ. Instead, it describes "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" that cannot nor will not be contained, controlled or defined by the delusion brought on by the fleshly mind. It demands that who you really are in Christ is not made up of a blend between the two, but of a life that cannot help but see through the conclusions of "the law of sin and death".
]]> Grace Formulas the shovel taking the kingdom of god by force? http://theshovel.net/questions/dig.asp?TID=522#630 http://theshovel.net/questions/dig.asp?TID=522#630Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:06:06 EST (My friend) keeps talking about faith all the time and always quotes this Scripture in a pathetic attempt to bring fear into my heart: "you can force your way in to the kingdom of God because the Bible says that since the days of John the baptist the kingdom of God suffers violence and the violent shall take it by force. Be vigilant and take the kingdom by force."
[/quote]
Just the fact that he is attempting to bring fear into your heart should tell you more than anything else. I think I did address this verse briefly on the Shack, but I'll share some more thoughts on both it and on his crazy explanation. The verse is part of Jesus' testimony of John the Baptist.

[quote=Matthew 11:7-19]"As these men were going away, Jesus began to speak to the crowds about John, "What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? But what did you go out to see? A man dressed in soft clothing? Those who wear soft clothing are in kings' palaces! But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and one who is more than a prophet. This is the one about whom it is written,

'BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU, WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY BEFORE YOU.'

Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force. For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come. He who has ears to hear, let him hear. But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children, and say, 'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.' For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon!' The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."[/quote]

What would make anybody suspect that Jesus was advocating violence as a means to gain God's kingdom? That is only man's violent reasoning and the violent have interpreted Jesus' words to fit their own designs and impulses. This is the same interpretation that drove the violent "Holy Wars" against the "infidels" in Jerusalem during what later became known as the Dark Ages. Their thinking parallels your friend's thinking.

While John was still in prison before being beheaded Jesus had addressed these people about him. You see, John was so very different from the religious leaders who spoke in the proper places of assembly. The only violent ones Jesus might be referring to would have been understood all too well. They were those who had opposed John. They were the ones who conspired against John and had him thrown in Herod's prison in order to get him out of the way. The same ones who were soon to do the same to Jesus.

The KJV reads, "the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." The kingdom of God, as preached by John, was suffering violence. This is not an endorsement, it is an indictment. Violence was being imposed upon it through their persecution of the one who preached this kingdom of God. The violent were taking it by doing away with the one who preached it. They were claiming it for their own. They were forcing themselves upon it.

[quote=Matthew 11:16-19]But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children, and say, 'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.'[/quote]

Here, Jesus ties it all together as he describes the generation that was under the leadership of the violent. The people expected people to perform for them according to their own fickleness. Neither John nor Jesus would meet up to their expectations even though they were so totally different. The people would find a suitable excuse to reject both of them, and they would follow the lead of violence in doing away with the messenger and the one he proclaimed.
]]> Spiritual Abuse the shovel repetition of numbers? http://theshovel.net/questions/dig.asp?TID=521#629 http://theshovel.net/questions/dig.asp?TID=521#629Wed, 24 Jan 2007 18:50:11 EST
I love what you've realized about this so-called "backsliding"! :)

A repetition of the numbers 1, 4 and 7, eh? I've been very aware of numbers over my life time. Certain numbers have caught my attention. I've always tried to catch the odometer when it crosses a new threshold with all the zeros or all the same number.

A couple years ago a good friend of mine brought up a similar thing regarding the numbers 727 and 52. He was seeing them everywhere. He says he remembers seeing them for many years. He thought God was giving him some kind of insight about world affairs or something that was about to happen on a grand scale. He was so intense about it I just let it slide without pointing out some very logic reasons why. He and I were born on the exact same day. Two years ago we were both 52. That means we were born in 1952. We were both born July 27, 1952 ... 7/27/52. We had seen those numbers countless times over the past 52 years! :) Maybe that's why the numbers 2 and 7 were my favorite numbers growing up (of course, for years I thought it was just because I liked the way my 2's and 7's looked when I wrote them).

I'm not going to try to tell you that God couldn't possibly be trying to tell you something, but I suspect there's some other reason why those numbers catch your attention. I seriously doubt that EVERY time you look at a clock it is either 1:47, 4:17, 7:14 or 7:41. The most obvious thing to me about those numbers is that they come about twice a day every day ... and they come about at the exact same times every day ... and your mind is fully capable of registering the time without seeing a clock. I've been able to hit within 5 minutes of the actual time almost any time someone would ask me. I'm also able to drive the speed limit without a speedometer, at least I used to years ago when my speedometer was broken. My friend scoffed at me for suggesting it so he followed me and had me signal him when I would reach each different speed limit. When we got to our destination he verified what I already knew. You know what's really weird? I just looked at the clock next to my computer and it says 7:27! haha. But now it's 7:28. Just let me know if the clock ever reads 4:71 or 1:74!

I used to own a lawn-maintenance business (for 7 years). One of the tools I used for hours a day is the Green Machine string trimmer (aka, the weed whacker). Though I was all decked out with protective sunglasses and ear muffs I could still hear the whining little engine. Certain sounds came through more pronounced because of the muffling, and one thing I seemed to hear over and over again was someone calling my name. I remember telling that story to a guy and he suggested that it might be God and I should listen to it. I remember just looking at him without making much of a reaction because I didn't want to laugh in his face. I can't remember if I told him this or if I just thought it to myself, but I remember saying, "If God wants to tell me something he won't need the muffled sounds of a string trimmer!" There is no mystery to why I would hear my name being spoken when I was trimming with my Green Machine. It was the first thing I used when arriving at my customers' houses and it would trigger a response from a few of them so that they simply had to get my attention. The fact is that I EXPECTED to hear my name being called by someone who just had to delay my tight schedule because it happened all the time, and the muffled sounds of the Green Machine are incredibly similar to the human voice. The only voice I was avoiding was the nagging of a whining customer!! :) And yet, the first thing the religious mind is going to suggest is that I must be trying to avoid God. Why would I need God to speak in a muffled voice when he was simply blowing me away with real life and real truth in everything I was experiencing? :)

Anyhow, that was a fun memory. I hope it means something to you. :)

Jim

]]> The Paranormal the shovel the will of god and doing what god wants? http://theshovel.net/questions/dig.asp?TID=519#620 http://theshovel.net/questions/dig.asp?TID=519#620Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:06:24 EST [quote=John wrote]I am definitely enjoying what I have read so far. I am sensing much agreement. From what I have read so far, it seems as if you are basically saying that Christ IS in us and living through us. We just have to realize this and rest in it and stop living under law. What about all the things the bible tells us we should and should not do? If, for instance, I am someone who is involved in sexual sin, should I continue in this or not? If I am someone who really enjoys getting drunk with wine now and then, how should I "not be drunk with wine" apart from law? I myself have a problem with knowing the will of God. I have left my second job in 8 months for "moral" reasons and am really frustrated with where I am at in my "career." Basically I have tried to discern the will of God in everything I have done and have kept myself from simply doing what I wanted to do (wanted for all the wrong reasons when I really looked at it: Pride, comfort, security, peoples praise) or thought was the "wisest" thing. I have even gone to the extreme of drawing lots to be sure it was handed over to his will (its every decision is from him after all). This assured me of my decision not being from my own fleshly desires but it also killed me by making it a law once I drew it. Anyway.... I am now in a position where I have a terrible resume and 4 kids to feed. I have no idea what God wants me to do and all the options I see make me miserable when I imagine pursuing them. When I pray for guidance, I get nothing. When I try to get off this "not my will but thy will" train and figure it out myself, I feel convicted and afraid of the consequences of my choices. I would really like to open up some dialogue if you have the time and the inclination. Thanks, John[/quote]

Hello John,

Okay, on to your questions:

[quote=John's question]What about all the things the bible tells us we should and should not do?[/quote]

What makes you think the Bible is telling YOU to do or not do all those things? Do you think just because it's written down on paper in book form with your name possibly written on the cover that those things are directed at you and that you are somehow expected to fulfill whatever you happen to read? If so, you better get rid of that book before it kills you! :)

Let's face it, we've already figured out that we can't do many of the things commanded in the Bible because they pertain so specifically to certain individuals, times and/or cultures. But as we've been under the impression that the Bible is our instruction book we've had to grapple with determining which things we're supposed to be doing or not doing. Of course, we usually leave those determinations up to the preachers and teachers so we can focus upon what they have stated is our part. Why else do we think there are so many differences in interpretations and applications?

First of all, realize that it was Israel that was given the Law, and even then each individual was not being commanded by every word written in every book in the writings of Moses, the Psalms and the Prophets because many of the things addressed were specific commands to specific people over the course of many, many years. For example, the whole account of Gideon was not a set of instructions for all the people but for Gideon. Now, consider how we've turned the story of Gideon into a process for finding the will of God by using a "fleece" as he did. Funny thing is that Gideon's use of the fleece was that he wasn't trying to determine what God wanted him to do but to get around what he already knew God wanted him to do.

We've done this same kind of thing for every conceivable situation in the book that could possibly be applied to our guidance. Of course, there are countless ways we've interpreted the words to make them fit our own situations, and new denominations, church splits, doctrines, etc have sprung up to help define these different views and applications of the same words we've all been reading. Ah, the simplicity behind our confusion! :)

Let me ask a couple questions about your approach to the will of God. You say you're afraid of the consequences of your own choices, but then aren't you also expressing regret in the consequences of the decisions you believe God has led you to? Do you assume that God would not, could not be happy with anything you, his own child, might choose?

Thoughts?

Jim :) ]]> Finding God's Will? the shovel the will of god and doing what god wants? http://theshovel.net/questions/dig.asp?TID=519#621 http://theshovel.net/questions/dig.asp?TID=519#621Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:14:33 EST

[quote=from my response]"Let's face it, we've already figured out that we can't do many of the things commanded in the Bible because they pertain so specifically to certain individuals, times and/or cultures"[/quote]

[quote=John asks]Please share some examples of things we are told to do in the New Testament that we cant do?[/quote]

I am wondering if you are subconsciously aware that you misread what I wrote. I did not say things WE are told to do but things that were addressed to individuals living at the time of writing. Perhaps this appears as a small or unimportant distinction to you, but in truth it actually hits upon the very point I make. For the reason I suggested we couldn't do many of those things was that the possibility of even trying to do so has been long gone. We have so long read or heard the New Testament writings as a volume of commands having been written specifically to ourselves that we have great difficulty considering them for what is actually written. Depending upon our specific religious leanings or upbringings we have adopted new and inventive ways to make unrelated or even obscure segments and verses more applicable to ourselves.

Because of the difference in the way you were taught to view certain verses I could provide you examples that might seem totally within the scope of possibility. However, if I were to quote Acts 27:31b, "Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved", would you see it as a command to try to follow in order to be saved, or would you be more inclined to consider that its meaning was intricately tied to the historical situation of the speaker? Or in John 9, with the healing of the man born blind are Jesus' words "Go, wash in the pool of Siloam," to be taken as a command to us ... or seen as specifically spoken to the man in question? In other words, can we remain in a ship that has long since deteriorated without forcing it to mean something other than what it was? While I'm sure many have tried to reproduce the situation in John can we go wash in the pool of Siloam and have our blinded eyes opened? The fact is that if we were considering these writings in their context we would not even think twice about most of these things.

My point is about where we draw our line, for we can't help but draw lines--perhaps subconscious ones--in order to make it all fit and allow us to approach the "commands" of the Bible in a doable fashion. Does this help explain what I wrote?

[quote=from my response]"You say you're afraid of the consequences of your own choices, but then aren't you also expressing regret in the consequences of the decisions you believe God has led you to?"[/quote]

[quote=John writes]If my kid comes to me for instruction in something I am an expert in and I give him the best advice out of love I can then he would be wise to fear the consequences of not doing what I said would he not? Not that I would punish him, but that he would not be choosing the wisest path.

I am questioning where I am at after trying to be obedient to what I have felt is the bible's message of denying ourselves, following after him, doing what he says, living as he lived. Not my will but thy will, no longer my own but bought with a price. Questioning the results, the fruits, the place I am in. I am not in a place of regret YET... just scared and "unhappy."[/quote]

Your argument about children taking their father's advice is a good one, however, it overlooks the amazing distinction of the father who dwells within through his spirit. The commands, or advice, of a father to a child who would stray without such commands is exactly how Paul related to the Galatians in their falling back to law as their guide to life and living. Just as Israel was a child needing to be escorted around by a governor, so are those who approach life as a series of commands, even if it had not been given to them to follow.

I do understand your questioning, I've been there. I don't regret having been there, nor how long it took to get out, for it was through my experiences there that his miraculous life has become seen all the more clearly. One thing I discovered was that my attempts at obedience to what I read in the Bible became very relative to my own perceptions of the very same things you mention: "denying ourselves, following after him, doing what he says, living as he lived". Do you want to know what disturbed me in the process? It was the striving for technicalities. After all, if I was going to be obedient to these Biblical things I had to know what it was I was being obedient to, and so I had to more accurately understand the meanings of "denying", "following", "doing", and "living". There are so many different views on what all that really means. No matter how well I thought I was doing I would meet a more Biblically sincere someone who made sure to let me know that I was seeing it wrong. Often the judgment would come less from what the other would say and more from my own inner comparisons.

Perhaps you're not at the point of regret yet, but you're sure leaning in that direction.

[quote=from my response]"Do you assume that God would not, could not be happy with anything you, his own child, might choose?"[/quote]

[quote=John writes]I dont think God needs anything from me. I do think those that are his have a path that has been laid out for them to walk in and that there is a difference between living a crucified life under His soveriegnty and one that is directed by what we want or feel is best.
Hebrews 3&4 warn us to not anger him and fail to enter into His rest as they did. Hebrews 2:1-3 also seem to clearly indicate that God might not be happy with choices and that there would be consequences for this.[/quote]

What if there is another path ... one of resurrected life?

The letter to the Hebrews is one of the most misunderstood in all the NT letters because it is not considered in view of who it was written to and the situation at hand. I have a few things written about this here.

Jim :)

]]> Finding God's Will? the shovel the will of god and doing what god wants? http://theshovel.net/questions/dig.asp?TID=519#623 http://theshovel.net/questions/dig.asp?TID=519#623Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:24:21 EST [quote=John writes]Thanks for the response. I certainly do not think that the distinction you are making is a small one, and am glad to receive a clearer understanding of what it means to "walk in the same manner as He walked" (1John 2:6)

In Matt. 7:24, after much instruction, Jesus compares EVERYONE that hears THESE words of mine and DOES them to EVERYONE who hears THESE words of mine and DOES NOT DO them. Would you classify the teaching He is referring to here as historically and specifically oriented as Paul's admonition to "stay in the boat?" Do you see Paul's instruction not to get drunk with wine to be as singularly addressing the Ephesians as Jesus' instruction to wash in the pool of Siloam was to the blind man?

Are you also saying that the scriptures about "denying ourselves, following after him, doing what he says, living as he lived" were not addressed to us? the scriptures that say "deny"

Tell me more specifically about what you mean by the resurected life and how we find/get on/stay on that path you are referring to. Peace, John[/quote]

Hello again John,

[quote=John's question]In Matt. 7:24, after much instruction, Jesus compares EVERYONE that hears THESE words of mine and DOES them to EVERYONE who hears THESE words of mine and DOES NOT DO them. Would you classify the teaching He is referring to here as historically and specifically oriented as Paul's admonition to "stay in the boat?"[/quote]

No, I would not classify this in the same way. There is definitely an historical and specific understanding to what Jesus was saying, however, that doesn't mean it doesn't speak to a similar situation beyond that, even to us today. The problem we have had with these words (and most others like that spoken by Jesus) is that because we have forced these words to fit into our religious boxes we have turned them around. In context, who "does" them ... and who "does not" do them? The harsh reality of what Jesus said did not give the religious preachers some good sermon material by which to hammer their congregations, but instead it put the preachers and teachers in the spotlight as those who were demanding the people should do what they themselves did not do. This is a timeless message because it reveals "lip service" for what it really is. It also speaks of the miraculous reality of the work of God in those who actually do God's will. The examples of the ones who were hearing and doing undermined the professed teachings on doing God's work. Jesus spoke of those who were despised, those who would never be regarding as doing anything of worth. Images of sinners, lepers, homeless, and the blind were issued forth in what Jesus said because these were the ones who heard him and came to him. It was not the teachers and preachers and holy men of God. The same holds true today, but we have turned them right around to say the exact opposite most of the time. We've let the religious establishment tell us how to understand such words. Remember, the religious leaders of Jesus' day did everything they could to appear to be keeping God's words. But with men this is impossible, with God all things are possible. It is Christ in me by which I do God's will and keep his words. Forget the programs and the acceptance factors by which men judge this. If we hear these words as demanded by the same religious mind that Jesus was rebuking we will get caught up in the same fallacy of trying to do the impossible. In our desperation we have automatically reinterpreted Jesus' statements. They may read, "everyone that hears these words of mine and does them", but we hear, "everyone that hears these words of mine and tries to do them". He that has the son of God has the life, he that does not have the son of God does not have the life.

[quote=another question from John's response]Do you see Paul's instruction not to get drunk with wine to be as singularly addressing the Ephesians as Jesus' instruction to wash in the pool of Siloam was to the blind man?[/quote]

"And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,"

To tell you the truth I don't see Paul's comments about getting drunk with wine to be the crux of his point, and therefore, not an "instruction" as we usually read it. Paul didn't bring up the comparison of getting drunk with wine for the purpose of making an instruction but as a contrast to what he was really highlighting, "filled with the Spirit". It seems the KJV did a better job translating this by stating, "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit". Was Paul telling them to do something, or was he relating their former well-remembered excesses to the reality of Christ's spirit? While you can get too much wine, you can't get too much of the Spirit. Don't let yourself be controlled by too much wine, but by the Spirit of God. No doubt to those who may have still imbibed in too much wine Paul's comments would have put that continued excess into perspective by the insanity of living by the spirit of Christ, but his message really had to do with what he had already stated:

"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all." Eph 1:17-23

"That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. Eph 3:16-21

Well, enough for tonight, it's almost bedtime.
Thoughts?

Jim]]> Finding God's Will? the shovel the will of god and doing what god wants? http://theshovel.net/questions/dig.asp?TID=519#624 http://theshovel.net/questions/dig.asp?TID=519#624Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:28:52 EST

[quote=John responds]Thanks again for the thorough reply.

[quote=from my response]The problem we have had with these words (and most others like that spoken by Jesus) is that because we have forced these words to fit into our religious boxes we have turned them around. In context, who "does" them ... and who "does not" do them?[/quote]

I am somewhat confused about specifically what you mean regarding the "turning around" of the words that Jesus spoke regarding things such as give to whoever asks, turn the other cheek, do not resist an evil doer, do not do your works before men, or pray in public, or show that you are fasting, or seek first the kingdom and its righteousness, or sell all your possessions. Jesus tells us "woe to the rich, those whom everyone speaks well of and the comfortable (and tells us the story of the rich man and Lazurus). He says not to store up our treasures here on earth and gives us the parable of the man who enlarges his barns to "save up" for a comfortable retirement. Do these things have application to us? How do they get turned around?[/quote]

I say turned around because the religious mind is still making its pretended or exaggerated show of "doing" in order to compare one with another. It has created this whole illusion in which the "doers" seem obvious and that those who don't follow these hard and fast rules are made to appear as those who do not do. It has once again been turned around in the exact way as when the religious leaders condemned Jesus as a sinner in view of their own adherence to the Law. That which is born of God will always appear as a sinner to the religious mind, and this mind isn't satisfied unless you appear as a sinner to your own eyes. This mind uses the words of Jesus, the one who was judged as evil by the good he did, and turns them around to make us question the miraculous reality of God within us.

Now, if you examine any one of these "commands" of Jesus (or the whole list as you have compiled it) and end up concluding that you just can't do it, you would be right. However, this is the mind of the flesh, the wisdom of man that examines such things to determine the how or the if or the exceptions. For any one of these "commands" I'll bet you could find an overabundance of information written with one slant or another in order to somehow make the deed doable.

Jesus said these things directly in connection (or in opposition) to the fleshly system of man's religion that had so meticulously created a slew of loopholes in the Law in order to establish its own hierarchy and authority in the things of God. In truth, their system had nothing to do with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob but only with themselves. They quoted from Moses, but they did not believe Moses, in spite of all their lip-service.

Consider his statement, "Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back." (Matthew 5:42). This is a wonderful sounding concept that stirs a wishfulness in people who imagine what life could be like if everyone treated each other this way, yes? What did the people at the time hear? Well, some were only stirred with fear or anger or resentfulness because they valued their possessions above all. Who were the most affected? The religious leaders. Why? Because they knew that the scriptures they had been put in charge of was filled with examples of such generosity, not only from God but from some who had so little to give. No doubt there were many among the common folk who also reacted in the same way, but the fact is that their sense of possessiveness (at the cost of others) had been strengthened and justified by the teachings of the same religious leaders who were in the hot spot.

The question remains, How many, even of the selfishly corrupt crowd, were stirred by a hope that pulled them out of the realm of impossibilities so that they could only imagine that it might really be possible? I'm sure many of them were filled with a yearning that stuck around for a short while causing them to respond as he said. "So Jesus said to them, 'For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light' These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them. " (John 12:35-36) Yes, there was a temporary benefit to their following Jesus that only ended up accentuating the need for that which was about to come. They could not, would not have missed its significance, for they all fell away when Jesus was taken away to die.

"Do not do your works before men". Let's expand this with the NASB. "Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 6:1). Hear this according to the context of the situation. There was no mistaking who was included in Jesus' words. Feel the tension between Jesus and the Pharisees (and scribes, etc), as well as that of the disciples who must have been wondering when the religious weight might come falling down on top of them. It may have been liberating for many of them to finally hear someone denouncing the public show of the religious elite, these "men of God" who flaunted their own righteousness before all men, but they also realized that these supposed authorities of God had a lot of power and were being called out in front of the little people of Israel. EVERYTHING done by those who paraded themselves around before Israel was done to be noticed by them. Perhaps most of the crowd already sensed this, but who was going to say anything to them? And then, what would anyone propose instead?

It makes little difference if we can spot hypocrisy in others, but what are we going say, what are we proposing to replace it with if all we've known is fear and hypocrisy? For all who approach God without the spirit of God will only end up discovering nothing but hypocrisy. Jesus' words without his very presence would mean nothing at all. It was only after his death and resurrection, and then the indwelling of the spirit he sent that put these words in their true context. "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.'" (John 12:23-24). And you want to know what? In spite of the fact that Jesus Christ has already been glorified in having died as a seed to bear much fruit we still read these words as if they stood on their own. But they don't.

The yearning for living as he did is fulfilled in us who walk in the spirit. Not because we learn which things to do or not to do, but because we have been set free from the bondage of sin and death, the bondage of self, the bondage of religion. While we don't need to be told how to live we don't have to fear hearing what his life is made of. That which can only appear as difficult commands to the mind of the flesh sound very much different to the mind of the spirit. We hear HIS spirit resonate with our spirits. We hear the encouragement of real life as it flows from God.

Well, enough for today. I'll send this off lest I stop again and don't send it for a while. I know I haven't address all your particulars, and perhaps I will cover more of them, but I know that the more you see of Christ in all this the more you'll find you don't need all the answers. And I don't mean that in any kind of a condescending way, but that just from experience I've had numerous end up telling me not to worry about many of their issues because they had ceased being issues. That doesn't mean they were then able to figure out the rest of their questions, but that in finding confidence in Christ they were ready to move on in freedom, with or without those answers. :) I'll be waiting to hear from you.

Jim :)
]]> Finding God's Will? the shovel the will of god and doing what god wants? http://theshovel.net/questions/dig.asp?TID=519#625 http://theshovel.net/questions/dig.asp?TID=519#625Tue, 23 Jan 2007 18:31:06 EST [quote=John asks]Are you saying that Jesus never intended for us to actually DO the things he said?

[quote=from my response]Jesus said these things directly in connection (or in opposition) to the fleshly system of man's religion that had so meticulously created a slew of loopholes in the Law in order to establish its own hierarchy and authority in the things of God.[/quote]

I dont see that Jesus said these things "in opposition" to the fleshly system of man's religion. It seems more that he is saying this is how you should live. Help me see the connection to the fleshly system of man's religion please

Unfortunately, I have to stop here for now... I would really like to find some time to address a few of the other things you said in this letter. In the meantime would you mind addressing some of my other questions and thoughts? I would really appreciate it.[/quote]

John,

Do me a favor and more carefully re-read what I've written, as your reactions suggest you're not hearing me. Life in Christ is so much better than what you're imagining. Consider this from Paul's letter to the Romans:

[quote=Romans 8:1-4]Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.[/quote]

Jim
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