31 Dec 2002

What are your thoughts on the Trinity?

Submitted by theshovel
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Thanx for writing. :) I'm glad to see that you are questioning the norm.

You are right, the doctrine got added into the mix of "Christian" teachings. I have lots of problems with it ... mostly because it is the attempt of the natural mind of man to make God make sense, and in so doing, we have made God more like us than letting God be God. It has the APPEARANCE of giving God His full due, but it actually short-circuits any true understanding of God.

I used to wonder how so many denominations could hold to a doctrine that was supposed to be one of the fundamentals of the faith, and yet be built totally around the premise that salvation was attainable by works. I thought, "How could they be so right about one of the most important Christian doctrines and yet be so wrong about most everything else?".

It's all about formulas ... kinda like knowing the secret password. It is one of those things that "Christians" listen for so they can determine whether or not you are a heretic. It is a way to pacify yourself that you are believing the right things about God. That's why when you question it most will react in a horrified or defensive manner.

Now, in saying this, let me say that I don't agree with the statement "God...created Christ in the beginning," Understanding Jesus Christ isn't found in a formula that designates the "persons of the Godhead", nor is it found in the alternative that says he was just the first creation.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1

In the beginning was the Word. John 1:1

When we're looking for Jesus "in the beginning" we're looking for the wrong thing. It is the "Word of God" that should get your attention. The word came forth out of the mouth of God...

By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and by the breath of His mouth all their host. Psalm 33:6

Remember the creation story? Everytime God SAID, "Let there be ..." There was whatever He spoke.

So shall My WORD be which goes forth from My mouth; it shall not return to Me empty without accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it. Isaiah 55:11

So, what is the connection between God and His Word? Is it understood as a creation ... or as the exact expression of who He is?

In these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world, and he is THE RADIANCE OF HIS GLORY, and THE EXACT REPRESENTATION OF HIS NATURE, and upholds all things by THE WORD OF HIS POWER. Hebrews 1:2 & 3

It was THE WORD that was made flesh and dwelt among us (see John 1:14). Most of our teachings on this talk around in circles. They say that Jesus came down from God and became flesh, but that isn't true, is it? Matthew says that Mary...

was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit Matthew 1:18

God told Joseph...

that which has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bear a son; and you shall call his name JESUS, FOR IT IS HE WHO WILL SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS.Matthew 1:20-21

"Jesus" didn't come down from heaven, but the WORD OF GOD (or THE SPIRIT OF GOD) came down and was joined together in union with the creation to save this creation. That's kinda what you were saying in your letter, wasn't it? Notice, it wasn't until the word became flesh that he was called "Jesus".

It was the EXPRESSION OF GOD that got joined together with the creation that gave God His Son. Not Jesus Christ, a creation of God, but the joining of the CREATOR with the CREATION. Solomon had correctly said that "There is no new thing under the sun". But then .. something happened! JESUS was the only "new thing under the sun" ... for though all things grow old and wear out Jesus never does!

The doctrine of the Trinity uses many of these same verses, but will never allow for what I just told you. I have had so many run-ins with those who hold to the Trinity teaching that just shake their heads at me and call me "heretic". :)

Well, let me know your thoughts on this. I realize that I only touched on a bit of what you wrote.

Jim (aka "the shovel")

I am just simply going outside the small perimeter

I hear you, bro! I love going outside the small perimeter ... but just make sure you're not doing it just to make your own perimeter that somebody else has to try to go outside. hahaha! :) Oh, yeah, I've been aware of how easy it is to build a position just to "disprove" somebody else's.

In your attempt to disprove the "Trinity" (Remember, I also view it as a bogus doctrine) where are you getting your information from? As I see it, you are using some of the same logic THEY have used, but it seems that since you reject their conclusions you have to make different ones.

I'm referring to your statements:

Christ ... was in existence in the beginning, right? ... So He knew Christ would be needed .and His appearances in the Old Covenant would be explained as He was in existence, in the Spiritual sense...so he was made "In the beginning" , and God worked through Christ to create.For by Him and Through Him all things were made

THEY say "Christ", YOU say Christ ... the Bible says "the Word". You may think this is nitpicking, but how is it that this seems to be overlooked? Why is it so easy to say that "Jesus was in the beginning" when John who is the one we get the most info from was very careful NOT to word it that way?

Why DIDN'T he say that "Jesus" or "Christ" was in the beginning? That's my question.

Now, as to your question:

Could our God be even more Gracious then we could ever ever imagine!? :)

I love it!!!! :)

shovel

You wrote:

I have learned this from a Minister, who understands , Hebrew and Greek

My friend, this comment sounds more like the same "small perimeter" the Evangelicals operate in, for they say the exact same thing. They use their understanding of the original languages to support their views ... is this really how you want to prove yours? Just remember that the Pharisees who stood face to face with Jesus were "Ministers" who understood the Hebrew and Greek ... and they totally missed the life of the scriptures that they studied. I don't know your minister friend, and this is really not a comment about HIM as much as it is about how you just rationalized your beliefs by that statement.

Thoughts?

Comments

I have enjoyed your talks with Adam about grace. There is one area that I disagree with you strongly. We refer to this as the trinity.
Please do yourself (and me) a favor and consider this verse from Isaiah. “When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned; the flames will not set you ablaze. For I am the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior” (Isaiah 43:2-3) It says “I am the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel” yet it says, “your Savior”. As we know, Jesus was and is the only Savior. All of the following are from (website name removed).
[collapsed]Please consider what's said here.
Is The Father Greater Than The Son?
Q. I don’t have a problem with the trinity but I have a friend who does, He has been a Jehovah’s Witness and threw a question at me I couldn’t answer. Why did Jesus say “My Father is Greater than I”. How would you answer that question?
A. There are a number of verses in the Bible equating Jesus and God. John 1:1, John 10:30, John 14:9, Colossians 1:15, and Hebrews 1:8-9 are examples. But as for why Jesus said, “My Father is greater than I” (John 14:28), I think Philippians 2:5-11 is the one to use. “Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God,did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” The Father is greater than the Son because they agreed to make it so.
More About The Trinity
Q. Does each member of the Trinity have different attributes? Like as in is God the Father the most powerful? Did OT Jesus, earthly Jesus, earthly resurrected Jesus, and now heavenly Jesus have different Godly attributes? Growing up, I always prayed to Jesus, but I learned we are told to pray to God the Father. Do you imagine/envision God the Father in some sort of way when you pray? God the Father is an invisible spirit? Is that correct?
A. It’s clear that each member of the Trinity has accepted a different role, and that Jesus and the Holy Spirit submit to the Father’s authority. But I believe they all share the same attributes, since they are all one. While He was on Earth, Jesus set aside His personal powers and worked as a man through the power of the Holy Spirit. He did this to show us that through the power of the Holy Spirit we could do the same things He did (John 14:12). As for only praying to the Father, I disagree. In John 14:13-14 Jesus said we can ask Him for anything and He will do it to bring glory to the Father. He repeated this in John 15:7. In John 16:23 He said the Father will give us whatever we ask in Jesus’ name. This tells me that we can pray to either the Father or the Son. I am not aware of visualizing any image of God or Jesus when I pray. To me this would come close to creating an image of God, which is a violation of the commandment (Exodus 20:4). Jesus said God is Spirit (John 4:24) and I believe that makes Him invisible to us in our current state. I am aware of sometimes visualizing the person or object I’m praying about.
Who’s He Talking To?
Q. Who is God talking with in Genesis 1:26? Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness…..” I love your website and rely on it constantly for biblical sound truths. Thank you for being there for us. A. In Hebrew, one of the names for God is Elohim. It’s a plural word and hints at His triune nature. It’s the word translated God in Genesis 1:26, where the triune God is talking to Himself, saying, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness.” Genesis 1:1 says, “In the beginning God (Elohim) created the Heaven and the Earth. Genesis 1:2 says the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) hovered over the waters. John 1:1-3 says “In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.” To make it clear he was speaking of Jesus, in John 1:14 he wrote, “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” And in Colossians 1:15 Paul said, “He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
All of the Trinity was involved in the Creation. Was Jesus Created?
Q. I was brought up as a Jehovah’s Witness but now I have found Christ and I’m saved. But there is this concept that I have not been able to clear in my mind. Was Jesus Christ created? Please refer to Colossians 1: 15-16 in your answer.
A. Colossians 1:15-16 says; “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.” The Greek word translated firstborn is the word from which we get prototype and refers to the fact that in His humanity Jesus is the model or standard for mankind, not that he was the first person born. In Colossians 1:16 Paul said that everything was created by him and for him, things in Heaven (angels) and on Earth (mankind). So He is not a created being but is in fact the Creator of all beings. The writer of Hebrews confirmed this in chapter 1, agreeing that when God wants to be visible, He appears as Jesus. In fact he later quoted Psalm 45:6-7 where God Himself addressed His Son as God (Hebr. 1:8). Jesus claimed to be God in John 10:30 and John 14:9 , and John said so in John 1:1. The witness of Scripture is clear and stands in direct conflict with Jehovah’s Witness doctrine which claims that Jesus and the Archangel Michael are one and the same, the first created being.[/collapsed]
me again…I believe God uses His word to convict men of sin, convince them of His righteousness and He uses His word to comfort them. Faith comes through hearing and hearing by the word of God.
theshovel's picture

Hello my friend.
I'm glad that you are enjoying the audios Adam and I put out. Just so you know, Adam may not agree with much of what I've written regarding the Trinity, either. In our past communication, though we've touched on the matter, and have agreed on a few things, he's obviously not as passionate about it as I am. wink (He can correct me if I've misstated his view in any way.)
I hope you don't mind me making an adjustment to your comment, but I don't often accept blocks of copy & pasted text, as I am not a proponent of such communication. I prefer people to put things into their own words. It makes them consider the matter far more than simply responding with the words of another, regardless of the possibility that someone else might say it better than you can. Years ago, I did respond to a few who copied & pasted their questions and/or responses, and it became a little ridiculous. After I took a considerable amount of time writing out a response, the other person would merely come back with another long, copied block of text from someone else. There were a lot of words but very little communication. Also, I have made it a habit to accept links or references to other websites as long as it's reciprocal (for a similar reason).
In regard to your comments, I am quite familiar with all the Biblical references and accompanying logic you've provided. And yes, I mean logic. In a court of law, your points might be considered circumstantial. A scene from the Jim Carrey movie Liar, Liar just popped into my head, where Carrey is asked by the judge if a so-called "fact" was indeed true, to which Carrey desperately claims "Well it has to be!" What was obviously behind his statement was simply that in order to sway the judge, he needed it to be true. And we've done a lot of that when it comes to many of our so-called Christian viewpoints.
Starting with the verse from Isaiah 43, I propose that we've created our own conundrum regarding any perceived conflicts. This is what happens when we try to make God fit into an explainable format. And that's exactly what we're hoping to achieve. You see, I have no problem with the verses you mention, I've just given up my old attempts to view it all according to the logic of man's perception. Don't suppose that just because you have Scripture on your side that it can't be a human perception, for that whole Scripture-based mindset was definitely part of Paul's previous viewpoint of the Christ.
Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.  2 Corinthians 5:16

“… the joining of the CREATOR with the CREATION…”

i can not tell you how much i LOVE that!!  it is beyond words to express!  :)

i think there is a song ;)  that expresses praise about that very thing!  you should input it somewhere here for easy access, because it is so apropos!  :)  it is so in context of this very thing!  :)   pleeeeeze!?  :)

“Just remember that the Pharisees who stood face to face with Jesus were “Ministers” who understood the Hebrew and Greek … and they totally missed the life of the scriptures that they studied.”
 
this is a very good point!  if we all had to be hebrew and greek scholars to know GOD then we would all be seriously disheartened, insecure, completely without confidence and hope in our hearts, minds and lives, wouldn't we?  thank GOD for HIS Spirit living in us, teaching us, leading us!  we are His New Creation!  we have a new heart, mind and life.  there is nothing wrong with knowing Hebrew and Greek, of course.  the problem is putting all hope and confidence in them and missing the very Source of our true Hope and Confidence found in Christ Himself and not the languages.
 
26 These things I did write to you concerning those leading you astray;
 
27 … and you, the Anointing that ye did receive from Him, in you it doth remain, and ye have no need that any one may teach you, but as the same Anointing doth teach you concerning all, and is true, and is not a lie, and even as was taught you, ye shall remain in Him. 
1 John 2:26-27

“… and the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and remind you of all things that I said to you.”  
John 14:6

just as the Spirit of GOD was to come to teach, comfort and bring all things back to the memory of the disciples taught by Jesus Himself after He ascended back to the Father, that same Spirit of GOD (there can be only ONE)  continues His work, teaching all who are in Christ.  Life speaks to Life … out of, out from, out for and out to His very Life in us.  those who are HIS hear Him, know Him and recognize Him.  the New Creation has the very Life, heart, mind and Spirit of GOD in them in Christ Jesus.  the New Creation is a Miracle!  :)  that New Creation Life originates from, is sustained by and maintained by GOD Himself in Christ Jesus. it is the very work of the Spirit of GOD Himself in man, just as it was the very Spirit of GOD at work in the man Jesus Christ Who was the first-BORN of GOD Himself.  therefore we can be called sons, brothers and friends!  :)  all because of GOD in Christ Jesus and now in us!  :)

it is all so very wonderful and miraculous!  :)

heart
theshovel's picture

Word

Word from the beginning, power sent of God
Son born of the Father . . . Jesus, He was called
Creator and creation joined in one

Glory of the highest humbled by the birth.
Lived among the dying full of grace and truth
Came to save His dying world

Behold the glory of the Holy One.  Behold the glory in the Son
Word made flesh, He walked among us -- God and man has become one

Come, see the wonder of the ages, come, see that which has not been known
Christ, the Word, still walks upon the earth, He lives in us who are His own

Word from the beginning . . . power sent of God
Son born of the Father . . . Jesus, He was called
Creator and creation joined in one

written and copyright by Jim Minker, 12/96

Love it! big smile

 

Bro- Adam

too bad you can't hear the actual song!  :(  it is my ultimate favorite so far!  well … i have a FEW favorites actually, but … THAT one is on the TOP the past few years!  :)

maybe one day he can record it and then come back and put a link here on this page.  :) 

i especially love it at Christmas time.  :)  but really … it is a song for ANYtime!  :)

heart

I'll have him sing it to me in Octoberlol

 

heart

Adam

clap     big smile    do you have an acoustic guitar?

Honestly no I don't. Hannah has one that I bought her for Christmas last year but, it is all busted up already.

spinHey maybe he will just do it a ccapella?!! 

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Random Shovelquote: Token God (view all shovelquotes)

What if the religion of Christianity has simply designated Jesus as being its token-God much the same way other religions have theirs? source