Thanx for writing. :) I'm glad to see that you are questioning the norm.
You are right, the doctrine got added into the mix of "Christian" teachings. I have lots of problems with it ... mostly because it is the attempt of the natural mind of man to make God make sense, and in so doing, we have made God more like us than letting God be God. It has the APPEARANCE of giving God His full due, but it actually short-circuits any true understanding of God.
I used to wonder how so many denominations could hold to a doctrine that was supposed to be one of the fundamentals of the faith, and yet be built totally around the premise that salvation was attainable by works. I thought, "How could they be so right about one of the most important Christian doctrines and yet be so wrong about most everything else?".
It's all about formulas ... kinda like knowing the secret password. It is one of those things that "Christians" listen for so they can determine whether or not you are a heretic. It is a way to pacify yourself that you are believing the right things about God. That's why when you question it most will react in a horrified or defensive manner.
Now, in saying this, let me say that I don't agree with the statement "God...created Christ in the beginning," Understanding Jesus Christ isn't found in a formula that designates the "persons of the Godhead", nor is it found in the alternative that says he was just the first creation.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1
In the beginning was the Word. John 1:1
When we're looking for Jesus "in the beginning" we're looking for the wrong thing. It is the "Word of God" that should get your attention. The word came forth out of the mouth of God...
By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and by the breath of His mouth all their host. Psalm 33:6
Remember the creation story? Everytime God SAID, "Let there be ..." There was whatever He spoke.
So shall My WORD be which goes forth from My mouth; it shall not return to Me empty without accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it. Isaiah 55:11
So, what is the connection between God and His Word? Is it understood as a creation ... or as the exact expression of who He is?
In these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world, and he is THE RADIANCE OF HIS GLORY, and THE EXACT REPRESENTATION OF HIS NATURE, and upholds all things by THE WORD OF HIS POWER. Hebrews 1:2 & 3
It was THE WORD that was made flesh and dwelt among us (see John 1:14). Most of our teachings on this talk around in circles. They say that Jesus came down from God and became flesh, but that isn't true, is it? Matthew says that Mary...
was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit Matthew 1:18
God told Joseph...
that which has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bear a son; and you shall call his name JESUS, FOR IT IS HE WHO WILL SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS.Matthew 1:20-21
"Jesus" didn't come down from heaven, but the WORD OF GOD (or THE SPIRIT OF GOD) came down and was joined together in union with the creation to save this creation. That's kinda what you were saying in your letter, wasn't it? Notice, it wasn't until the word became flesh that he was called "Jesus".
It was the EXPRESSION OF GOD that got joined together with the creation that gave God His Son. Not Jesus Christ, a creation of God, but the joining of the CREATOR with the CREATION. Solomon had correctly said that "There is no new thing under the sun". But then .. something happened! JESUS was the only "new thing under the sun" ... for though all things grow old and wear out Jesus never does!
The doctrine of the Trinity uses many of these same verses, but will never allow for what I just told you. I have had so many run-ins with those who hold to the Trinity teaching that just shake their heads at me and call me "heretic". :)
Well, let me know your thoughts on this. I realize that I only touched on a bit of what you wrote.
Jim (aka "the shovel")
I am just simply going outside the small perimeter
I hear you, bro! I love going outside the small perimeter ... but just make sure you're not doing it just to make your own perimeter that somebody else has to try to go outside. hahaha! :) Oh, yeah, I've been aware of how easy it is to build a position just to "disprove" somebody else's.
In your attempt to disprove the "Trinity" (Remember, I also view it as a bogus doctrine) where are you getting your information from? As I see it, you are using some of the same logic THEY have used, but it seems that since you reject their conclusions you have to make different ones.
I'm referring to your statements:
Christ ... was in existence in the beginning, right? ... So He knew Christ would be needed .and His appearances in the Old Covenant would be explained as He was in existence, in the Spiritual sense...so he was made "In the beginning" , and God worked through Christ to create.For by Him and Through Him all things were made
THEY say "Christ", YOU say Christ ... the Bible says "the Word". You may think this is nitpicking, but how is it that this seems to be overlooked? Why is it so easy to say that "Jesus was in the beginning" when John who is the one we get the most info from was very careful NOT to word it that way?
Why DIDN'T he say that "Jesus" or "Christ" was in the beginning? That's my question.
Now, as to your question:
Could our God be even more Gracious then we could ever ever imagine!? :)
I love it!!!! :)
I have learned this from a Minister, who understands , Hebrew and Greek
My friend, this comment sounds more like the same "small perimeter" the Evangelicals operate in, for they say the exact same thing. They use their understanding of the original languages to support their views ... is this really how you want to prove yours? Just remember that the Pharisees who stood face to face with Jesus were "Ministers" who understood the Hebrew and Greek ... and they totally missed the life of the scriptures that they studied. I don't know your minister friend, and this is really not a comment about HIM as much as it is about how you just rationalized your beliefs by that statement.