1 Jan 2000

Banging heads over salvation discussion

Submitted by theshovel
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I am banging heads with someone over a teaching, can you help me?anonymous

I read your email this morning and checked out the discussion you mentioned to me. My opinion is that the whole discussion is an exercise in futility. Why do I say this? Because you have left Christ, and Him crucified totally out of the picture. How can you have a discussion about salvation without actually considering Christ and the salvation HE brought?

Jim Minker

I really don't know if I will make any impact on Lazarus' thinking or not. I have the impression that many are reading this and this may possibly be helpful in that sense. I'm not the best at communicating and I'm not just wanting to win an argument here at all. What are your views on these type of circumstances? Do you continue to follow the thread? anonymous

Here's the way I see it: Lazarus enjoys the argument because it is how he validates his Christianity. The problem with such argument is that is has absolutely nothing do with his real life! He escapes reality but justifies it by the fact that he is talking about God. But he's not. He is only validating himself through the illusion of control. The person he hopes to convince through all his detailed argument is not really you, but himself. Don't you see? If he can convince you, then maybe, just maybe he will be able to believe it himself. He is raging on the inside, for he knows that he has not, nor can not follow this path as he has described it. He sure hasn't fooled God on the issue.

I used to assume that if a person talked so much about walking the straight and narrow that they must be doing it much better than me because I knew that I didn't even have a clue, nor the dedication, that was claimed. I hear a totally different thing now. It has become obvious to me that those who talk so much about their own dedication are only trying to convince themselves that they are doing this thing, because the alternative is unacceptable.

My thoughts are this: stop listening to his argument, and through the hearing God has given you, listen to his heart. You will know what he doesn't need to hear ... and you already know what he does need to hear.



Jim your description of the individual in question is amazing. It hits home because recently - actually last night - i got suckered into debating Jesus's existence with an atheist friend on Facebook. It took me reading this page this morning to have a "what am i doing?" ephiphany: who was i trying to convince? Her? Or myself? Reality and life cannot be found by debate and argument; oftentimes its actually found where we would LEAST expect it... LOSING the debates hehe.

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Random Shovelquote: False perceptions gone? (view all shovelquotes)

I think you’re assuming that all my false perceptions are gone. No, they keep popping up to be shot down by the overwhelming reality of the new creation in Christ. source