1 Jan 2002

Does forgiveness mean one must return to an abusive relation?

Submitted by theshovel
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Does RECONCILIATION go hand in hand with forgiveness. I know it does when it comes to the finished work of Christ on the cross. -But If I let go and allow Christ to forgive through me,(That's probably not the right way to put it, but I can't think of any other way at the moment)- He's not going to make me 'reconcile' to people who would destroy me all over again is He?? R

Hi R,

I do not think there is any particular demand upon you to go back to an abusive situation just because you recognize that through Christ God holds nothing against anyone. The truth of the matter is for you to become confident in Christ so that it may affect all your relationships because it actually establishes the true basis of relationship.

True reconciliation is what Christ brought about by having removed the offense by having died to it and raised to new life ... which means that reconciliation is found in the life of another: Christ. Now, you may again encounter those who have caused this abuse and at that time it will be freedom to you to remember that fleshly attempts to "recompense" or fix the situation are worthless. Because only in Christ is there any "reconciliation" and it is only in HIM that there is nothing held against another.

Remember that guilt is done away in Christ so that you have no cause to give into the beliefs, and subsequent feelings that will demand it of you. I see no reason to force what only God can prepare you for ... just be ready to remember the truth! :)

Love, Jim

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Hi Jim, I sense freedom in the above words and heart you conveyed to the questioner. I almost wonder if in our own personal lives, if God hasn’t actually left things be in some situations so that we WOULD begin to draw confidence in Him. I am not sure. For I also see folks who at the slightest drop of a napkin- up and get out of supposed “bad,abusive situations”. Or even a person who doesn’t support there own personal dreams to the fullest extent to be said to be “abusing them” because of this. So it seems relative and to me is not that “clear cut” in personal relationships as to who is abusing and who is not etc.. I also often wonder how much of an “abusers” abuses often are the honest reaction to something very normal for another? Again very relative. I mean, by what standard or measure are we to calculate our abuse or abuser? Is it just up to our perception of what IS abusive?[maybe it is] Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying there are not out right abuses in the world. I have been victim to that very thing in my life. But what about the not so clear abuses? What about the meeker people in life that can not even measure or understand that they are being abused? They simply just continue in discomfort hoping one day it will get better through patience and kindness?[in other words- duty bound forgiveness] It just seems to go BOTH ways and well, everything in between. I mean what if YOU are just too darn sensitive and you are not really being abused at all? Is this person going to benefit from “forgiving” the person? Hmm..I don’t know. Maybe, I guess. I think in my life I have had people who have done continual abuses towards me but, then I also had sensitivities that played into that as well. I mean if someone is abusing you by ignoring you, and you are a person who really needs to talk at that point in your life, then aren’t you BOTH in a desperate situation? Objectively speaking, is this not were confidence in Christ becomes important? Is distancing ourselves the answer to confidence? Or just a natural reaction to the poop hittin the fan? Quite frankly I have had times in my life were distance from the ENTIRE WORLD is what I craved. Was that the answer to my confidence in Christ? I am not so sure?[i honestly don’t know] Did I just recognize a well needed break from life? I don’t know? They don’t just come that easy. Was the answer to run and hide from it all or was it in learning confidence in Christ?[how about both? Run and hide and learn confidence!] Well aside from all these questions I can certainly see wisdom in getting distance from whoever and whenever when you are in the midst of intense confusion about confidence in Him because most likely it would be your only healthy alternative. Man I don’t even know if any of this will come out making any sense! He he he..maybe there is one or two points that will strike up a conversation for someone at a future date. Thanks for letting me speak my mind.

This is an excellent thing to consider. I especially like the realness of the way I always see you think. 

I think abuse has nothing primarily to do with appearance. It is the desires of the fleshly mind. For the fleshly mind seeks to gain, and therefore to take away life; whereas the spirit seeks to impart life. It doesn't matter how it appears, for when the fleshly mind desires something it will always find ways to attain to it on the back of someone else. For example, those supposedly meek people that seek to attain to that imaginative place of forgiveness are in fact abusive in this their desire, because that pursuit of theirs binds them to hold transgression against others and to manipulate through guilt. It just doesn't appear this way, because the definition of abuse has been perverted by the same intellectual mind that finds loopholes in it. How much of what we used to consider as abuse might actually have been love? And how much of what we used to consider as love might actually have been abuse? How much of meekness was restlessness, and how much of restlessness might have been meekness? Or it might as well have been neither, for we know the expertise of the fleshly mind in that it changes appearances according to what is said to be the right one.

Though in Christ there is no knowledge of sin, it is only the mind of error that assumes that the mind of Christ is blind to the ways of the flesh. But in Christ there is no knowledge of sin precisely because though his life recognizes the erroneous it nevertheless reaps life through it. This is how love endures all things and covers all transgressions. This is the basis of true and lasting relationships. For if God was in the business of altering circumstances in order that on the basis of that change in appearance we may arrive at a sense of independence and well-being, then the world as it is would not have existed in the first place. 

By no means am I exacting from anyone to maintain a relationship, or even to depart from one. In this I appear to take no stance. But this is because the insanity of the intellectual mind sees a one-sided issue as something both good and bad. 

* On a side note, I noted that my experiences of confusion arise only when I attempt to provide an intellectual justification or reason for the motions of the desires of my heart, because the very beginning of this attempt is the fleshly mind with which we are incompatible. The intellectual mind will never justify the longings of the heart; similarly, the embedded wisdom of God will not justify the mind of the intellectual and dead concepts, because they are always appearance-based. For the flesh has no access to the wisdom of God. So I ceased from the attempt to figure my freedom out by the outward and began relying on that recognition of things that to us comes by nature.

We don't need and we can't have a validation for our freedom other than the reality of that freedom itself. It is the search for such an intellectual validation that binds us to appear abusive in the first place, because it binds the mind to the knowledge of lack.

 

Hi Georgi this was full of great stuff :) thankyou! :) It brought to memory some of the things that have been swirling in my mind for a awhile–Its like you wrote down lots of the various things I've thought at various times, clarified them and stuck the all in one place! :) It was fun to read :) and you wrote some new stuff to think about too. :) I may add a few comments in the future.. As yesterday, and even this morning (as I was thinking about this when I woke up.) I had a few things I wanted to say.. but somewhere in between the time I woke up and logged on here i seem I lost them.. -.- They feel like they are at the tip of my tongue, but I just can't bring them up lol.. Sorry this post may not be the best but my brain just isn't cooperating anymore with me this morning.. I think I need to go eat breakfast. (speaking of which I wonder what I should have this morning? :) lol) but anyway I just wanted to let you know that I enjoyed your post :)

Thanks again

Nathaniel

:O
PS. Though I just went to do a quick reread to try and clarify my thoughts before I sent this off, and I noticed you edited some more stuff in! :o Sneaky! :P LOL I'll have to read it all again later as well. :) I'm looking forward to it :)

 

theshovel's picture

Nathaniel, it is so good to see you posting again! I love your honesty. :)

Jim

Heyi, 

smiley Yeah I have the habit of editing my posts before someone gets to quote them, because when I re-read  them after an hour they oftentimes sound very confusing and disconnected to me when I imagine myself reading them from another's perspective,  and also because the grammar is very bad. 

Anyway, I'm really glad you enjoy what you read. 

“But in Christ there is no knowledge of sin precisely because though his life recognizes the erroneous it nevertheless reaps life through it.” Georgi Excellent Georgi!. Reminds me of that verse that reads something like this: ‘While man meant it for evil/harm, God meant it for good.’ Negative actions/thoughts are such a killer for so many including myself if viewed from the flesh. In this fallen world it is so prevalent in words spoken, gestures/attitudes portrayed, in prideful/demeaning challenges given, or unspoken body actions … like a cancer, its everywhere. But those that are one with Christ sees through the elementary intent to see our identity only in Him and He turns all these things to good for us. There truly is no condemnation in Christ as stated in Romans 8. I use to think of that verse as a “positive thinking” statement so I can overcome feelings of condemnation. But now its been revealed that my real Life in Him is isolated, untouched by the old dead man thinking and the elementary challenges in the world. There truly is … for real … No Condemnation in those born of the Spirit. Reminds me of Paul’s prayer in Ephesians 1:17,18,19. Great stuff, Georgi. Enjoy reading your comments. Thanks Bro.

I'm glad you find this profitable. As you said, the flesh interprets mental and bodily motions according to its own expectation of finality. It testifies against itself through everything. This is the source of its fear and anxiety; and they themselves are a witness against it in that they reveal that the flesh is subject to an end  through death. They are also the engine that drives the world around. But at the same time, because of the lusts in the fleshly mind, there is also the illusion that life is somehow still attainable in the appearance. This is why the things of the flesh are so openly advertised everywhere as something to be sought after, because this whole facade has to be justified through our seeming consent. The insanity is beyond our ability to utter it, but our heart recognizes it clear-cut and it groans for something alive and real. I know very well how those who are in the flesh are attempting to rationalize it, because I myself used to do the same for years. But to the mind of Christ all things are laid out utterly simple and obvious for what they are.

* I think the life of Christ is taking us by surprise every time we find ourselves so caught up in the reasoning of the appearance-based intellectual mind. In the midst of it he reveals to us that though we taste of death we ourselves cannot die, and that therefore we have been made to partake in the power-over-death which is at work in him. It seems to me that God intended for us in this life to always taste of the deathly mind first, just so that it would be real clear to ourselves what his power is all about; and at last, to taste of the death of the body just so that we may know through death the real fullness of his life. So in myself I am no longer afraid, though my mind is terribly afraid. Because his reality has never been unfaithful to reveal through the fear of death what the absence of finality is like.

Adam, what you wrote made sense to me.. and it struck a chord with my situation atm. I may try and talk later.. as I am a tired atm..


Hey tho this just came to mind tho.. Do you think that perhaps the needing to get away can be a way to TRY and keep it all together? (“If I could only get away THEN I would be able too…”) Because at the moment i find screaming within myself “I cant!” I just cannot deal with the entire world atm.. but its been through this that I have eventually (once I have comepletely worn myself out) come to realise more clearly the futility of my attempts.. and that it is up to Christ – that he in me WILL produce fruit according to the promises and that i no longer need to sow to the futile attemps of my flesh.. however I still seem to do that daily LOL.. Even at this very moment I am “Trying”  to get to that place of “realizing” lol.. ah well.. where was i going with this? OH yeah needing to get away isn't and or doesnt neccessarily have to be a way to TRY and keep it all together either.. Because even in myself I feel the utter exhaustion in what seems to be every bone in my body lol… So I am sure it can just be a need to REST and RELAX too. As I barely have it in myself to feel like doing anything.. LOL So i am sure getting away would help.. (I am sorta hiding and pretending to be asleep atm.. LOL) though I dont think it is THE THING that I am seeking for atm..  but yeah.. hopefully this makes some sense..


Well, I best get going… WIsh me luck today…. :/ LOL! :) (GREAT I LAUGHED..! NOW MY COVER IS SURELY BLOWNN!! :P)


Nathaniel

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