You are surfing theShovel.net as a Guest
Random shovelquote
If you are one who believes in Christ, then you have been made alive in Him AND YOU ARE DEPENDENT UPON HIM FOR YOUR VERY LIFE. source
If you are one who believes in Christ, then you have been made alive in Him AND YOU ARE DEPENDENT UPON HIM FOR YOUR VERY LIFE. source
Very good, Jim!
"If you want to honor the Spirit that moved David, stand firm in the fortune that he desired to understand: Christ in you, the hope of glory."
How much clearer could you/it be? So good!
A
Hello Danny,
Thanks for your comment. :) Hopefully, I can get to the other comments soon. I'll post them when I do. You know, if you register and then are logged in when you write, these comments get posted immediately. However, I have to leave for work right now.
Jim
Excellent! See Jim, I agree with you on more things than you think :) The article on the Rich Man and Lazarus was excellent as well.
- Danny
Beautiful photo!!! ... reminds me of my evening Calloway Garden trips (Pine Mtn, Ga.) to watch the sunset.
Enjoyed about an hour of reading the Shevel today. Rich and liberating.
Jim, thank you for this web site.
Hello,
As just an observer, I wanted to comment on this exchange. I am glad for the exchange because in witnessing it, I have finally seen something I had not seen as clearly before. Jim I see your response as completely frustrating to the mindset that we learned in this world. lol For what we learned in our churches was all things pertaining to SEPARATION. You not responding in "kind" to Dan's letter to you is again something very frustrating from the view point of the mind of separation. For THAT mind is always looking for more info. to keep itself separated from Christ. But, we are not separated. When under the delusion that we are separated from Christ through logic and bible words and phrases, we demand that we indeed ARE separated when we are really not, in Truth. Legalities and logic as opposed to receiving grace, only puffs up, takes you down a path of no were and ends up a formula with no life. Grace brings peace and true contentment. We have adopted a strong sense of the law in our demanding to have answers to the legal objections so we can have a more 'legal' grace. At the same time our reality in this situation of insanity does sometime demand that we work through obvious errors in interpretations[in the Bible]-but, It is a worthy notation to at least point out the awful trickery of the Devil through just gaining more knowledge. I am not sure that all sounds perfect, but it is what I could come up with to say about it all.
Adam
Hello again, Danny :)
You ask for my insight, so I will tell you what I see. I hope you don't disregard whatever I end up writing just because it might not seem to answer what you've asked. And please do not consider that I am in any way scolding you or putting you down, for I desire to stimulate your righteous mind. :)
You wrote:
"After reading the articles, Revelation 2:20-22 came to mind..."
When you assume that forgiveness in Christ sounds too good to be true there will always be that one more verse that simply has to be answered before you can really believe it. I don't suggest that the subject matter of your questions is unworthy, rather in them I already hear an endless string of "yeah—but" objections. I'm not against a cross-reference, but from personal experience I am well-acquainted with rabbit trails of Bible study that bring no real answers.
There are certain phrases that caught my attention in what you've written, such as: "I don't buy any argument that says...", "post-Cross passage", "total forgiveness", "How do we reconcile this with...", and "Age of Grace". I'm not necessarily opposed to any one of these phrases, however to me, collectively they express a rigid framework you expect every answer to fit in.
I think you may have set yourself up on a quest to get grace all figured out so that you can support your views. Perhaps you fear the objections of those who seem to have a better handle on Scripture than yourself. I think it would do you well to read through a book like Matthew or Luke, especially noting how Jesus did or did not respond to the Bible scholars of the day who constantly hounded him. Now if you find that reading those dialogs only prompts questions rather than confidence, you may want to consider that you are approaching them with the very same sin-conscious perceptions of those who opposed Jesus. We are not bound by the logic of those who are "always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." (2 Timothy 3:7)
Jim
Hi Jim,
A few comments on the "Faith and The Shaking":
"Because our senses tell us NOTHING about what we cannot see (perceive), taste, touch, hear, etc. we have come up with the concept that faith is a leap in the dark"-Jim
I can really remember "the shaking" in me when I was starting to painfully realize that maybe faith was not what I had always assumed it was. I remember were I was, what I was doing..it was a real scary time in my life. I felt as if my whole world was falling apart. My faith was falling apart. For my sincerity was intense but, my understanding was that of the elements of this world.[but I didn't know it] I was crying as if in the dark, meanwhile I was in the light. Wow. What an experience. The closest to physical death I can personally imagine.
"The fact is that in Christ we having been seeing the invisible realities all along. The shaking is His gracious work in our lives - even though we often perceive it to be against us."-Jim
When I read this I could not help but, see this as a possible reference to the "discipline of the Lord" described in Hebrews. We are always trying to figure out what the heck it is but, maybe this is exactly what that is. What a welcomed discipline that is, at least to me. Only for what it yields.[tough though!!!!!!!]
Thanks Jim, I so appreciate the confidence that you share in all of this.
A
Hi Jim. Thanks for pointing me to your other database. After reading the articles, Revelation 2:20-22 came to mind, so I looked in your Q & A section, and found your response to a question about God's Anger toward the churches in Revelation. For Thyatira, you wrote, "Be careful of those ministers' who promote themselves (Thyatira)." Yes, the false prophetess in this passage is promoting herself and her teachings, but in 2:22 Jesus makes it clear that He will place His servants into intense tribulation if they don't change their minds and stop following her. Verse 20 makes it clear that Jesus' servants are the ones engaging in these acts with her. I don't buy any argument that says these servants aren't saved. Jesus calls them His servants so it is natural that in this post-Cross passage we are dealing with believers. Though they are saved, Jesus is still threating punishment, so it seems that total forgiveness doesn't remove punishment. Even if you argue that the reason He is threatening this judgment is because they are buying into her self-promotion, the fact remains that He is threating His servants with intense tribulation. How do we reconcile this with Hebrews 10:17?
And yes, it's Danny again :)
Aside from the Revelaton 2:22 question, what's the point of the warning in 1 Corinthians 10:11 if God won't use the same punishment against believers if necessary? You didn't address that verse in the old database. And 1 Cor 10:22 seems to imply that God can still be provoked to jealous anger. Yes, the Jews were under Law, but Paul seems to stress the possibility of the same judgment on believers even in the Age of Grace. I really need your insight here.
Hello Danny!
I still have many articles in my former database that I haven't transferred over yet, and that's where I have some articles you might be interested in. I'm heading out the door in a few minutes to pick up my oldest daughter for one of our weekend sunrise walks on the beach so for now I'll just post these two links:
http://theshovel.shovelshack.net/writings/dig.asp?TID=338&PN=1
http://theshovel.shovelshack.net/writings/dig.asp?TID=412&PN=1
Jim :)
Hi Jim. Looks like this post is 11 years old. I don't see anything on here explaining 1 Cor 11:27-32. When I read the passage, along with the whole of the previous chapter, it seems God was judging the Corinthians for their sins. Concerning 1 Cor 10:13, yes, I understand that God is NOT the one doing the tempting. I realize that God doesn't tempt us with evil, but rather provides a way of escape. Still, it seems that 10:5-11 are warnings of God judging us for our sins the same way he judged the Israelites. In these verses he mentions what happened to the Israelites as a result of their sin, and in verse 11 says these things happened to them as example and warning to us. I agree that we have total forgiveness in Christ, but I still see judgment for sin in these passages, which is what leads many to hold to the distinction between judicial forgiveness and fellowship forgiveness. I no longer hold to this distinction, which has me stumped as to how to handle 1 Cor 10:5-11 and 11:27-32. Can you exegete each verse?
Oops! Forgot to include my name in my comment. I'm Danny :)
Adam
I believe the best way to state this would be for you to call me.
517-263-0917
Dave what is it to you to "walk in fellowship" with God?
Adam
Hey Guys In the above post i was not talking about people who i believe are no longer saved and once were. In facy they are saved and i know it they just little by little walk away and no longer want to fellowship with any one.
They are in know sin and dont care they begin to believe the lie that heven will be thier home someday instead of the fact that Christ is thier life now.
While some may sin at first this should not be a way of life for any who have truly been set free. Let alone for those who have been walking in fellowship with Him and just walk away.
The good part is do not judge them but keep beleiving God and they will return to him and all will be well. If you are really doing this you do not have to promote your selves Christ in you is the one who convicks and convinces of sin we do not need to point fingers the life we live in Christ shoud be enough.
I am so sure of the life of God that lives in all true believers that you do not need to rake them over the coals just walk in love with them and the life of God in you will be more then enough.
Dave, Jim
My main point in what I spoke up about was to say that though we assume that another is NOT alive to God based on their 'waywardness',often times they are alive. WE ourselves are dipping into the SAME well as the supposed unbeliever when we assume that they are not alive to God because they have pulled away. The problem is we have to produce all sorts of formulas and earmarks to come up with who is saved, who is falling into "sin" etc..We need to be careful that we are not using fleshly judgment to promote OURSELVES in all of that judgment we are using. Fleshly reasoning can be on both forms..religious judgment and outward 'sinning'. They are both from the same source.
Adam,
I also see that Dave missed an important distinction I made, but I recognize his heart in what he has written. Then again, I think you do as well.
Dave,
A key distinction in my article deals with how a body of supposed believers ended up actually being largely composed of unbelievers. While we have often found ourselves trying to figure out how so many of those who truly belong to God have walked away, it just may be that they were only believers in form only.
On the other hand, I do understand the hurt and sadness when witnessing those born of God living as if they are not. And that does seem to be the main point you're making. Just realize that some of those you think to have walked away from Christ have merely walked away from the form of Christ that was found in a gathering.
Jim
I combined two of David's comments together. The first was posted as a visitor, so I didn't find it until later, but it was directly attached as a reply to Adam's comment. I kept the first because it will notify both if additional comments are made (assuming the notification feature was accepted). Unfortunately, I accidentally lost my comment attached to the other one, but I'll add something.
Jim
Hello luvin
I have no idea what you are talking about be more direct and plain.
Sometimes what we are saying by typing gets misunderstood.
I really think you have mis understood what i have said. One of the reasons i dont post much to easy to be misunderstood and not worth the time to untangle it.How do you think i am decieved?
David L
Dave the very description you laid out here in your response, is I think, the very thing Jim's letter is addressing. I too once thought they way you described above, many years ago and it was a whirl wind of deception handed down to me by man that only ended up revealing a need for fleshly self importance and self righteousness. Things are NOT as they appear outwardly. I encourage you to consider that.
When I read this: " Do we suppose it brings any glory to God to grapple with the questions that were formed in the darkness? Instead, let us bring those questions to light so that they may be seen as having died along with everything else of that former life."-Jim
I t made me think of the letter to the Romans and all those questions Paul kept posing..."may it never be!"
A
"What was Paul's REAL[emphasis Adam's]message in all of that? It has to do with how you see yourself in whatever situation you are in. The slave was FREE IN CHRIST; the free man was ENSLAVED TO GOD. We are in HIM ... in His Will ... either way. Pursuing freedom from your slave issue will result in your living AS IF you are NOT free in Christ and your choices and viewpoints will all be found in SLAVERY TO MEN ... AND THEIR SYSTEMS. Yuck!"-Jim
I have to wonder just how far reaching this reality actually is? I mean are we not attempting to ESCAPE every waking moment of our day?[ it does not matter WHAT we do for a job or who we are living with or who are friends are]Are we not basing our whole existence, our joy, our very life on the view point of the flesh? NO WONDER we can not bare the experience of each and every moment.-Adam
Set your mind on things above!
What if this is the very thing that has been keeping us from enjoying the reality of being in the center of God's will?-JIm
..lol..ironic..because This IS peace.[from an enjoyment standpoint]
yes and to add to what I was saying here above..I found a nice quote from another post you had written Jim. Here it is:
"Then re-entered the flesh's viewpoint - and with it, an incredible conflict. It's one thing to have a perception shift, it's another to have the dead attempt to re-interpret what can only be understood by the life that emerged on the other side of death. But that sure doesn't hinder the flesh from trying anyway! And the very best attempt of the fleshly religious mind merely converts Christ into a program based on that same old psycho-babble.
Should it come as a surprise when something within us doubts a Christianity that must be created and maintained by trying to believe it? Could it be that faith has absolutely nothing in common with the flesh's reinterpretation of it? Oh, maybe you'll disagree with my assessment - and that's okay by me - but if Christ is in you then the REAL you will still have a problem with such a fleshly excuse for the new miraculous life we have in Christ."-JM
In my humble opinion this has got to be one of the biggest splinters in the understanding of our miraculous standing in the Son of God. Reading this phrase laced all throughout the new testament can constantly bring up images of human effort in our minds that serves only to :
a] kill us
B]stifle any joy in us
c]confuse us
d]eventually make us crazy[literally]
Again from my own experience and from my own perspective, those of us who were brought to Him and are completely dependent on Him, do not know what to do with ourselves when we read things that according to modern language, could only point to a clear cut message of human effort. This forces our minds back into that FORMER existence of death and then begins to offer up the thoughts and impressions of the mind that CAN NOT submit to God! NO WONDER we start to see the doubts of our former existence begin to be stirred up again for no apparent reason. They are connected to the elemental mind. Nothing else. Wow these invaders, these thoughts are running free reign in the sanctified minds turf and it is civil war because the one is opposed to the other! No wonder some turn to drugs and counselors and endless aids to escape the all out battles in ones head. That is so sad. For all those thoughts cause feelings, and all those feelings cause bodily responses and all those bodily responses can cause damage which i turn can cause more thoughts![and the circle just recycles right back to the start again..but gets deeper and more severe] It is the war we are in. It's the battle ground on which we walk that stimulated Paul to encourage them/us to put on the armor of God.
everyone who loves is born of God and knows God 1 John 4:7
The misunderstanding among those to whom John wrote this letter was simple in that they began taking heed to the claims of the religious who merely had words and yet obviously had no life. These were those who boasted of their great love for God while actually hating those they called "brother".-Jim
I wonder if those in Christ who notice the feelings of hate so dominating there lives if maybe it might occur to them that something is terribly wrong? Hebrews speaks of it as a "root of bitterness". What causes this hate, this vengeance, this root of bitterness? Hmmmm....could be that of natural wisdom..hmmm...which is according to the elementary principals of the world? Hmmm..
Why yes!!
If you are hoping to hide this under the fig leaves of your attempt at self control then you are only kidding yourself. Then again, do you not know that Christ Jesus LIVES IN YOU? Why not expose it to the Light?
One of your best articles Jim. It is so relevant and so accurate. Like a skillful Dr. you assess the very thing taking place within us who are His.