1 May 2013

We are forgiven ... if?

Submitted by theshovel
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According to the Lord’s prayer, no one is forgiven who does not forgive others? Despite statements from Peter, John, Hebrews, and Paul that speak of forgiveness as a done deal, is this something we should worry about?

ShovelAudio: We are Forgiven … If?

(Audio Series: Men of Grace or Men of Law: The Sermon on the Mount)

ShovelAudio Download Link

New Testament: 

Comments

Luvin, unrelated to the audio's message of forgiveness, it's funny… you brought me up at the end and at first I was like “hey cool!” then I realized you said something to the effect of “I think they have the life in them… probably” right before that, and I thought, “Oh God, what if I don't have the life in me?” LOL confused

Now, I probably took that WHOLE passage you said and took it WAY out of context.

I think my reason for often doubting my salvation is rooted in ACTUALLY BEING IN CHRIST, ironically enough. It's weird… I'm overwhelmed constantly by the unstability of my mind's grasp of the stability of being in Christ. Most of the time I wish I was grounded like you, Georgi, Sherri, and Jim, until I realize that this “grounding” produces in the flesh the same doubts and fears I have that you guys most likely also had or have to deal with on a regular basis. In other words, I don't -have- to get to any -higher- level of understanding b/cuz I'm just as 'grounded'.

Doubting my salvation in and of itself is based upon the fear of “going to hell” without realizing that salvation is BEING SAVED FROM MYSELF!


That said, this was a great audio, and I really feel for you in your mother's passing. You're in my thoughts :)

Hello my dear brother.

 

You know, I think that we sometimes don't always reflect exactly what we want to say the way we want to say it and sometimes I find myself struggling to put together the words that reflect exactly what is in my heart at any given time. This would include our audio's. I so appreciate you telling me this because I want to be sensitive to what others have on their plates. In my heart I for sure do not want you stumbling over anything said.

 

I can tell you though that as I was coming to understand the things that Jim was sharing many years ago, I can remember having  times  of great frustration with him as we would sometimes correspond. In fact he will tell you that we kind of had a temporary spat like 9 years ago over my not truly understanding something he was saying to me. The thing is that we ALL struggle with doubts, with fears,  and with intense struggles. As you know Jim and I are very, very close now and I would trust him with the most intimate things in my life.[and often do] I so value his input that I really do not trust many other people besides him. Over time we have gotten to know one another and through that each others hearts and characters. I know now that all that he says is linked to the unmerited favor and grace God has bestowed upon us in His Son. There were times when I wasn't sure if that is where he was coming from though. I would try nailing him down and due to his desire to be completely and totally honest with text and various other subjects, I would get thrown off if their was not some familiar word, voice tone or phrase that I was accustomed to. This was at times  BIG struggle for me.

 

I too went through[and still find myself unpacking] some sever doubting as I went along in my walk in God on this earth. It is utterly and completely normal considering the background we had in the faith. We were taught that the very opposite of the reality of Christ WAS the reality. Yeah completely backwards. We picked up a TON of emotional wounds and confusing thoughts in that process. Some not meant for any man to carry.

 

So you can see that I like you have been through the same flesh, the same weakness and the same striping down to what remains. It has been painful I am not going to lie but, I would rather have the truth remain than to hear a lie of the natural mind to keep me feeling empty. I'm sure you would say the same. You have love and support here Justin. Your brothers got your back here. But even when it appears that isn't the case, remember that all that remains is Christ even if He seems ever so faint at that moment.

 

Love Luvin

Doubt is the experience where we recognize the presence of something hateful and conflicting to us in our minds. Bro, realize that you don’t and are unable to doubt salvation, because it is the reality of the world of your salvation in you that doubts the former perceptions as to what salvation is. So enjoy the experience and even study it if you wish, seeing that it makes evident some of the unutterable dynamics of those things that constitute you.
 

…realize that you don’t and are unable to doubt salvation…

Georgi, unfortunately it’s words like that that make me doubt my being in Christ, as opposed to being as one of those who “aren’t against us then for us” types. Because I DO doubt. Maybe in some uber-spiritual sense, or on another plain of reality, I don’t doubt, but I’m just being plain real and matteroffact. Things like this make me feel as though I’m lacking in the faith which you have.

because it is the reality of the world of your salvation in you that doubts the former perceptions as to what salvation is

I get what you’re saying, but salvation to me is being in Christ, being one with him, unified. and I AM doubting that every time I go on here.

I can’t deal with this anymore. I want to walk away from it all but there’s no where else to go. Because I hate the world and all its futility and emptiness. I’m DONE with chasing dreams. And I could’ve sworn God was showing me things until I come here and everybody sounds so super-spiritual. I can’t relate to you guys anymore. I feel like the odd man out. I feel like the one who the disciples saw was casting out demons in Jesus’s name and Jesus said that person is “not against us then he’s for us.

This always happens, in every arena of my life, I DON’T FIT IN WITH ANYTHING. I didn’t fit in with Christianity, and I don’t fit in with the world, and more and more I’m realizing that I don’t fit in with you guys. Maybe I’m an anomaly.

However, I could have sworn that Jesus was here FOR anomalies like me.

justin ~ perhaps ask yourself a good question:   what are you expecting from yourself that would make you feel more ‘spiritual’? 

another question:  what does it mean to you to be ‘spiritual’?

what would you have to be like to ‘fit in’ with us?  what are you looking at?  what are you expecting from yourself?  what are you expecting from us?  if you are looking to be like others, or them to be like you, you will more often than not,  be very disappointed.  i know you already know this.  i am just reaffirming it with you.  :)

following your reasoning, i know you feel bad because something makes you feel like you don’t belong with us, but we could feel bad too that you don’t think we are whatever it is you think we should be to fit in with you.  you know what i mean?  we have all lived various different kinds of lives here on earth.  we have been influenced and affected by each of our unique to us life experiences …. family, friends, school, work, our own selves, books we read, movies we watch, music we listen to, etc.  it is endless.   there is much to make any of us feel out of place with one another.  differences do that quite easily. 

what do we think ‘fit’ means?   despite our human temporal differences, there is nothing to separate us from HIM Who has become our Life, having made us New in Him … and having joined us together as one New Body, having many members.  i don’t really know what all that means, but i get a ‘sense’ of it from HIS Spirit within me.  i can’t really explain any of it, but … i know the Spirit in me is the same Spirit in you and that is why we are One.  whatever that means, too.  lol  i just know it is not because we may or may not FEEL comfortable with each other the way we communicate or the way we may live our lives, or the way we eat or play or rest or work or … fill in the blank.  

you have encouraged me so many times justin with your fleeting moments here and there of clarity that you share.  i love it!  :)   when it is there, it is there.  clarity is fleeting for me, too.  you are not alone.  there is not a thing wrong with feelings in and of themselves,  but feelings sure can distract us, can’t they?  sighhhh ….. and i don’t blame the feelings, as it is really our thoughts that are the culprits that affect our feelings.  so we can go back to ‘what are we thinking’.

anyway … those are the thoughts stimulated by your post.  if you have any answers to those questions, i would love to hear/read them.  :)

love and hugs  heart     hug

Hi Sherri. Fit in as in able to come here and not doubt my being in Christ when I read others’ comments.

I’ve learned something from all this. I can’t learn this way. If I am in Christ, then I’m gonna have to let him teach me these things himself. That means walking away, as I’m coming here, doubting everything, ruining Jim’s “We Are Forgiven…If” section and many others by my stupid questions and fears. This section was supposed to be about forgiveness, and I’ve made it into “me,” and I feel really guilty about it. What was once a website that liberated me has become a message of confusion and lack of any clarity and it’s not you guys’ fault it’s just you’re all on a higher wavelength than I am and I’m most likely reading fleshly things into all and everything that’s being said and written.

 When I return to this site hopefully I’ll be more mature and understand and get what you guys have been saying in all your posts. I’m on Facebook as Justin David S. if you ever want to add me and talk. Take care everyone.

i understand the feelings of needing to step away for a while … from ANYthing we feel overwhelmed by … for what-ever reason.  i love it when you come by and visit and post.  so no worries.  i hope and pray that you will have peace and rest in your heart and mind.  

heart

That guilt has been removed.

What you wrote actually affirms the truth of what I said, it does not disprove it.  For once again, the reality of the strife you express towards certain perceptions, even if they be of what I said,  is in fact your salvation. Being in Christ is evidenced by this same strife. Christ is not a man, or a perception of a man, but a world. And that world would never be bound to live in view of the deceiving perceptions that refer to the bodily appearance.

Things like this make me feel as though I’m lacking in the faith which you have.

This is the evidence of having this same faith, not the evidence of its absence.

the reality of the strife you express towards certain perceptions, even if they be of what I said,  is in fact your salvation.

Thank you both Georgi and Luvin for clarifying.

Hello Justin,

 

I know you didn’t ask me on this but, directed it to Georgi but, nonetheless I wanted to comment.

 

As I sit here in great pain over my losing my mother right before planning to go visit with her 2 days ago, I am now faced with things to decide regarding her that I never thought I would need to be facing. Not now at least. I am over come with grief. I go through my day having waves of sorrow. I am seeing that there is something inherent in the mind of the temporary that seeks to blind us from the reality that is freely known in Christ.

 

Don’t worry though because this too is Christ in you, His own work, His complete salvation from start to finish .

 

Behind the scenes of the temporary there remains a fixed reality from God that is not understood by the efforts or intelligence of man.[you are coming to rely on this] We have this testimony in us and we watch it’s darkness passing all the time in our experience. But Christ is faithful to remove the clouds and shine forth the knowledge of the Truth that resides in us. When Georgi says “it is not YOU who doubts”-he is saying that the YOU that is the REAL you, the heart, the thing God looks on[not man-he will not] DOES NOT DOUBT in ANY way. Just as Abraham NEVER doubted but was fully assured that God could and would do what He promised. Somehow this reality is what GOD saw of him but, Abraham from all appearances showed nothing of this by some of his deeds.

 

Man looks on the outward, Christ looks on the heart. YOU are perfect.

Ohhhh! And God owes us absolutely nothing.

I believe that when we recognize that we owe nothing to anyone and visa versa and that we actaully owe nothing to God then we will recognize that forgiveness.

theshovel's picture

Justin, You sound alot like me. In the past I struggled for many many years about my assurance of salvation….or if I had ever really been saved…perhaps I was not totally humbled and to proud to really trust Jesus. I came to realize (and this website has helped alot) that I was making my salvation about what I did and not just resting in what Jesus did. And resting can be done even in the midst of the battle…and BTW, the battle is real. But like you said, I had no other place to go, since deep down inside God had given me that gift to know The Truth….even though the battle was raging quite often……..FOR DECADES. One of the most endouraging books I’ve read is, “Grace Abounding To The Chief Of Sinners” the autobiography of John Bunyan. He had a horrible struggle for about 17 years….Even after his big breakthrough he recounts that even in the middle of his preaching he would struggle with very condemning thoughts that doubted his salvation. H. A. Ironsides a former pastor at Moody Church in the late 1930’s at one time doubted his salvation so much that he had to be institutionalized at a Christian rest home where he dicovered that just about everybody else there was struggling with similar issues. While there he made the amazing discovery that it really is all about Jesus and his work PERIOD As for me I had a breakthrough where I didn’t struggle at all for many months…complete peace of mind….amazing. But slowly, I began to have doubtful thoughts again, but by God’s grace those thoughst have never been able to dominate my thinking and emotions as they did in the past. When things get tough, I just remember, that it’s not about me……..It’s all about Jesus. I see that as God’s grace.

Justin, You sound alot like me. In the past I struggled for many many years about my assurance of salvation….or if I had ever really been saved…perhaps I was not totally humbled and to proud to really trust Jesus. I came to realize (and this website has helped alot) that I was making my salvation about what I did and not just resting in what Jesus did. And resting can be done even in the midst of the battle…and BTW, the battle is real. But like you said, I had no other place to go, since deep down inside God had given me that gift to know The Truth….even though the battle was raging quite often……..FOR DECADES. One of the most endouraging books I’ve read is, “Grace Abounding To The Chief Of Sinners” the autobiography of John Bunyan. He had a horrible struggle for about 17 years….Even after his big breakthrough he recounts that even in the middle of his preaching he would struggle with very condemning thoughts that doubted his salvation. H. A. Ironsides a former pastor at Moody Church in the late 1930’s at one time doubted his salvation so much that he had to be institutionalized at a Christian rest home where he dicovered that just about everybody else there was struggling with similar issues. While there he made the amazing discovery that it really is all about Jesus and his work PERIOD As for me I had a breakthrough where I didn’t struggle at all for many months…complete peace of mind….amazing. But slowly, I began to have doubtful thoughts again, but by God’s grace those thoughst have never been able to dominate my thinking and emotions as they did in the past. When things get tough, I just remember, that it’s not about me……..It’s all about Jesus. I see that as God’s grace.

Hello my dear brother.

 

You know, I think that we sometimes don’t always reflect exactly what we want to say the way we want to say it and sometimes I find myself struggling to put together the words that reflect exactly what is in my heart at any given time. This would include our audio’s. I so appreciate you telling me this because I want to be sensitive to what others have on their plates. In my heart I for sure do not want you stumbling over anything said.

 

I can tell you though that as I was coming to understand the things that Jim was sharing many years ago, I can remember having  times  of great frustration with him as we would sometimes correspond. In fact he will tell you that we kind of had a temporary spat like 9 years ago over my not truly understanding something he was saying to me. The thing is that we ALL struggle with doubts, with fears,  and with intense struggles. As you know Jim and I are very, very close now and I would trust him with the most intimate things in my life.[and often do] I so value his input that I really do not trust many other people besides him. Over time we have gotten to know one another and through that each others hearts and characters. I know now that all that he says is linked to the unmerited favor and grace God has bestowed upon us in His Son. There were times when I wasn’t sure if that is where he was coming from though. I would try nailing him down and due to his desire to be completely and totally honest with text and various other subjects, I would get thrown off if their was not some familiar word, voice tone or phrase that I was accustomed to. This was at times  BIG struggle for me.

 

I too went through[and still find myself unpacking] some sever doubting as I went along in my walk in God on this earth. It is utterly and completely normal considering the background we had in the faith. We were taught that the very opposite of the reality of Christ WAS the reality. Yeah completely backwards. We picked up a TON of emotional wounds and confusing thoughts in that process. Some not meant for any man to carry.

 

So you can see that I like you have been through the same flesh, the same weakness and the same striping down to what remains. It has been painful I am not going to lie but, I would rather have the truth remain than to hear a lie of the natural mind to keep me feeling empty. I’m sure you would say the same. You have love and support here Justin. Your brothers got your back here. But even when it appears that isn’t the case, remember that all that remains is Christ even if He seems ever so faint at that moment.

 

Love Luvin

Justin thank you for sharing! Your sisters have your back as well. We go through the pain you are feeling now as we too do not fit anywhere. But IN CHRIST I am who He created me to be and I am free and I like who I am in Him. No more judging is this right or that (realizing I never judged anything correctly anyway). Don’t have to worry about appearance,about tomorrow,about dying, don’t have to worry about being better or less than anybody else, in fact don’t have to worry about anything because He is LIFE and I don’t have to be anybody but who I am. Justin don’t think you are alone-everyone of us who post have gone through pain, I thought I made my world perfect but in one split second through a small incident I was cracked in pieces. I rebelled at God, slid my feet, and angrily cried out to HIM you are killing me!!!! It was a pain I could not have endured but for HIM. He was killing my confidence in everything I depended on and I had made my world perfect-it was only the illusion. I am glad Justin you can speak out and tell us where you are because you are more okay than you can even imagine. Thank you everyone who shares because as I read your posts I see the faithfulness of our Father and knowing as HE is faithful to you He always will be to me as well. This is the LIFE we are meant to live. Vivi

Thank you for sharing your heart, Vivian … sounds like a peace and rest like none other.

theshovel's picture

Vivian, you are an amazing encourager!! :)

Love, Jim

hug  so encouraging vivi  :)   

 

heart

I just listened again to Forgiven - If? All this is behind me but this is laid on my heart to share. This issue of forgiveness came up for me in a situation as I was the accused. I wanted to get back in a right relationship with the accusor so I went seeking forgiveness (so I could feel right again). The accusor gave me scriptures to show me why I sinned but no forgiveness was given (which now made this person the focus for getting right)so I remained in guilt and a sense of condemnation because I still have to shape up or change to get back in the right relationship with the person. So after a time I went again and this time I was told to check my motives. I read the books, studied scripture, knew what the pastor preached and no matter what, I could not get free. This was painful and I walked in complete fear afraid to do anything or speak for some years because I would just sin again and then what. I am so glad Father would not let me justify my flesh which I was trying to do even though I did not realize it at the time. Today I rejoice - this trial and the illusions I trusted were destroyed for me and His Life is my reality. The work was Christ's. I could not forgive and I wanted to be free but I could not make myself free. I could only be taken to the Cross so any trust in my performance (through law) to please people, myself or Christ had to be killed. Christ is my freedom (Life from Death)and it is HIM.

theshovel's picture

Vivian, wow! This is so powerful. The father has indeed been opening your eyes so that you recognize the fleshly manipulations that have caused you so much fear. I am encouraged. :)
Jim

“I am so glad Father would not let me justify my flesh which I was trying to do even though I did not realize it at the time.”

Wow this is INDEED excellent insight. As an observation, this reaction in you [above] was not the result of your Fathers Spirit in you but, rather the result of the fleshly teachings of men who desired to persuade you into their bondage. From it we only experience death and fear.

Great word Vivian!

ADAM

” I am so glad Father would not let me justify my flesh which I was trying to do even though I did not realize it at the time. “ <~ vivi

 

AWESOME!!   :)   thanx for sharing that experience, vivi!  :)   i can sooo relate with all the mentality on both sides of the same coin, and then to find ourselves totally OFF the coin … out of the box … Alive in Him our True Identity!   so much mo’ betta!!  :)

 

heart

as I listened in on our audio and remembered the example I brought up about how easy it was to produce those tears of sorrow for wrongs when I was first saved, I couldn't help but think maybe allot of that could have been the heavy sin consciousness we were taught as part of the gospel! 

 

Then again as I began to see those hardened responses that were once mine in the world BEFORE having Christ, I truly was ashamed at those things and truly was releasing that old dead mind. There was much sorrow there that eventually turned into a life of joy through Him as I grew in understanding.

 

Adam

This is for Justin if he is still reading…I copied this to my notepad to keep because it struck me as soooo true.  You, Justin wrote this…The lie will do everything it can to keep itself alive, but thanks be to our living God who shakes our world to make us see that which is unshakeable! It's in the midst of that shaking that you will discover an unshakeable reality within you that continues to desire God … and this abiding reality is that which will confirm to you that essence of your true life: Christ.  I think that Father may be able to minister to you with your own words.  The unshakable reality that you speak of certainly is the salvation, the Life that Father has placed within you.  Be encouraged with your own words, I know that they have encouraged me…

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Random Shovelquote: False perceptions gone? (view all shovelquotes)

I think you’re assuming that all my false perceptions are gone. No, they keep popping up to be shot down by the overwhelming reality of the new creation in Christ. source